Originally Posted by oskar

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 0.00 BB (7 handed)

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Flop: No need to bet so big and pot fuck commit yourself to this hand. You're multi-way and there are no draws to be worried about. make it closer to half pot.

Turn: good.

River: I'm checking this behind. The last thing we want is a checkraise when all we have is top pair. Two other players put $$ in the pot on the flop and turn, this should show more strength that you might anticipate.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Flop: No need to bet so big and pot fuck commit yourself to this hand. You're multi-way and there are no draws to be worried about. make it closer to half pot.

Originally Posted by Chopper

and, once checked to on the river, i think i fire, too. what donks a turn and c/r's a river? i dont see it coming. so, i need value. i probably bet less, about $1.50, but thats a bit nit-picky.

Originally Posted by oskar

In the KK hand I waited for someone to bet because we had one player AI preflop, and many players retain kind of a tournament mentality and think someone would only bet with a really strong hand here.

wellrounded, you are right about the slowplay donks. "checks nuts oop on the river" is one of my most common player notes. But without that read, I like to value-bet in that spot.

Originally Posted by oskar

In the KK hand I waited for someone to bet because we had one player AI preflop, and many players retain kind of a tournament mentality and think someone would only bet with a really strong hand here.

wellrounded, you are right about the slowplay donks. "checks nuts oop on the river" is one of my most common player notes. But without that read, I like to value-bet in that spot.

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont hate to disagree. this is how we learn...myself included. i am far from the best player here. i am only stating my opinion of what i do down here. i can beat these games, but others beat it far worse, and may very well agree with you and put me in my place. so, dont worry about disagreeing with me...ever. lol.

i think i see a contradiction in your statement, though. the "punish the bluffers..." sentence confuses me a little. i dont call ALL their raises. i do so with good hands, and let them spew into me. but, if the board is coordinated at all, i play my hand fast. bluffers HATE aggression, too. but, they do wake up with hands sometimes as well. you just have to see what they are willing to stack off with, and see how far they take their bluffs. again, it comes back to "reading players." but, we dont have a read here, so thats kind of moot.

and, we only valuebet marginal hands against passive players. not against players likely to raise us with worse. we look for the stations and never miss a bet against them....but fold to THEIR raises.

thats where i see a contradiction. it seems you are combining "straight up bluffers" and stations in your sentence. forgive me if i misunderstand. but, those two dont co-exist.

>I did appear to say that, but it's not what I meant.(mybad) That was more of a side note-Calling stations I v-bet till my index finger hurts.

and, yes, you force players, in general, to call with no odds. but, you also run a risk of misreading your villain's hand and committing yourself to a bigger pot with a losing hand all in the name of denying odds. there's a balance. but, that gets into implied odds and paying off scare cards...all a different discussion.

as for the c/c stuff, you had BETTER follow a c/c with a value bet. again, i may be misunderstanding, but if your villain is c/calling you, you can assume he doesnt like his hand enough to raise...or if he's tricky, he may be planning a c/r. but, this guy didnt. he c/c'd the flop and donked the turn. and, the CO went c/c, c/c again.

>Here's where I didn't make myself clear again.(mybad) I'm not v-betting a c/r. in most situations. Because most of my hands have moved from A to B range. I've now switched to Pot control.

i also never said i wasnt folding to a push/RR. i just dont see it coming. but, thats why i valuebet this river small. i am not interested in stacking off. i am not calling a push. but, i feel i have the better hand and dont think another A, or the K, can fold to a small river bet. you need to size it to where players will take your bet seriously, but will announce strength when you still have enough to get away. if you are sure you are ahead, you may try and induce a bluff here by betting even smaller, to trigger a bluff shove on the river. but, again, that takes a read which we dont have. overbet your river, and you ARE committed to calling a raise.

>I agree here, I'm certainly not calling a shove. But I see where we are differing now. You say you don't think they are reraising, I think it's too high a possibilty to chance. I just feel that we are better off in the long run checking this particular situation. He's probably not going to get two folds, that's out. So here's what's left. A call with a probably equal chance of being better or worse hand Or we get a reraise and we're out. Therefore, I don't think the bet is +EV

its a dicey situation. but, one that requires delicate sizing, imo. but, i still think it has to be bet. but, thats where i may be the fish. i just know these guys call off light.<True

oh, and as for your sig...i'll finish it for you...
Doc (continues): "Only suckers gambool. the odds are always on the house."
Another doc quote: "Well that must be a peach of a hand."

Originally Posted by Chopper

wellrounded, you make good sense. we just are disagreeing on how each other would play the hand. i talked with a friend of mine last night, about this specific hand, and he sided with you. he said the same thing and called me a spewmonkey. so, oh well. like i said, i dont do this at slightly higher levels. but, i do bet this river at 5NL. i just dont give them any credit for being good players. and, i would just shake my head with how horribly villain played his hand, and got rewarded with a suckout on me...as ogre said.

as for Tombstone, that movie has so many beautiful one-liners it deserves its own thread...

my fave..."i've got two guns. one for each of ya."