Working on exploiting LAggish player

**surviva316** · 06-29-2009 05:04 PM

HAND 1:

I had like 40 hands on villain at this point, but hadn't seen him show anything down (i had made him pay for limp/calling with a few cbets before this, but that's our only history). he was running 52/25/3 or something at the time of the hand. street by street thoughts below:

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($10.34)
Hero (MP) ($14.48)
Button ($12.78)
SB ($18.50)
BB ($9.67)

Preflop: Hero is MP with

,

UTG bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 3 folds

maybe it's nitty of me, but this is actually a borderline call for me. i usually make the call but i always have to think about it first. i saw his 25% PFR and figured he wasn't very positionally aware and was almost certain this was an opponent i could position pwn if given the right flop, so i call.

Flop: ($0.85)

,

(2 players)
UTG bets $0.85, Hero raises to $2.50, UTG calls $1.65

his cbet% was 100 (i had factored this going into the flop), and seeing as how he'd raised 1/4 of his first 40 hands i figured he had cbet 10 times which is a large enough sample for me to start to figure he cbets air. i have outs against his range, so i try to take it down here. i'm guessing floating is actually a better option here, especially because we have position?

Turn: ($5.85)

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

no way i'm barrelling this turn.

River: ($5.85)

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

i thought long and hard about bluffing again here, but couldn't justify it based on ranges. i dont' think he's ever folding a K here if he didn't on the flop, and the more T's and QQ and JJ type hands i put into his range, the looser of a fish he is for calling the flop so the more likely he is to call a river bluff even if he shouldn't. please shit on my thought process so i can learn and grow...

HAND 2:

same opponent like 50 hands later. now i have a bit more history because he saw me raise his cbet as a bluff (the hand before), and like two hands before this, i raised with K4s on the BU when he limped UTG, and delayed cbet an A-high board with no outs. he folded after thinking long and hard and i showed my garbage because i felt i was starting to get to him. i also had picked up a few reads by now but the only relavent one to this hand is that he ended up showing down AT in hand 1 of this post (meaning he's willing to continue with marginal hands to a flop raise).

i hate to be that dude who posts about maximizing value with an f'ing boat but i have to start figuring out how to exploit against specific types of fish

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($3.05)
CO ($7.49)
Button ($19.09)
SB ($2.40)
Hero (BB) ($11.99)
UTG ($17.29)

Preflop: Hero is BB with

,

2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.40)

,

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, CO raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.20, CO calls $0.80

the second i make this bet i regret that it's not bigger. i like auto half pot flops that are this bone dry, but i shoulda been more concerned about building a big pot rather than merging ranges. he min raises so i figure he likes his hand. should i raise more here? i don't want to push 98o off the hand and i he doesn't have TT+ 'cause my notes show that he PFR's his good hands. so the second he minraises i figure i might be able to get his stack but have a hard time imagining what he has, so i'm trying to get him to bluff his stack away.

Turn: ($2.80)

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

i feel a bet here makes him suspicious. before the turn even came i thought i was either going to have to insta-check or long-think/bet here in order to get the desired results of having him bang his head against the wall some more. am i getting too tricky?

River: ($2.80)

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.40

i'm obviously betting here. i'm never expecting him to call a CRAI and think there's a chance he'll push over because i'm not repping much (i've never seen him bluff without a draw though). bet sizing also seems fine to me but everything's up for discussion.

**spoonitnow** · 06-29-2009 05:43 PM

Hand 1: Looks fine
Hand 2: Looks fine until you fuck up the turn

**ColdDecked** · 06-29-2009 07:01 PM

Hand 1: looks okay

Hand 2: If he's calling your flop 3 bet, I don't think he's calling a turn blank (or what would appear to be a blank), so bet turn. Around $2.20-2.50 should set you up well enough for a river shove.

**Sir Pawnalot** · 06-29-2009 08:37 PM

To get better at playing LAGGY opponents you must understand them.

1. Practice making psychological judgements of opponents- how is their emotional state? What kind of persona are we dealing with?

2. Are there any rational reasons why a player is LAGGY? If there are, you must be wary of assuming that the player is LAGGY de facto.

General tip: Represent missed overs against AGGRO players.

**surviva316** · 06-29-2009 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

To get better at playing LAGGY opponents you must understand them.

1. Practice making psychological judgements of opponents- how is their emotional state? What kind of persona are we dealing with?

2. Are there any rational reasons why a player is LAGGY? If there are, you must be wary of assuming that the player is LAGGY de facto.

General tip: Represent missed overs against AGGRO players.

fwiw, i really meant it when i said laggISH, 'cause the player's a lot looser than he is aggressive. in fact i hadn't seen him show down any bluffs. i knew he was loose because of his +50 vpip and his call with MPTK when i raised his cbet. i really just meant a very loose player who's capable of aggression and is probably getting f'ing sick of me playing back at him

**Sir Pawnalot** · 06-29-2009 08:52 PM

Every player should be analyzed either he is LAGGY or LAGGISH or whatever.

Why is someone loose/passive? Impatience, lack of skills, adjustment to players/table conditions, setting up a metagame etc...

Make a psychological sketch, recreate his mind and play "with him". Know his decisions even before he knows them himself.

**surviva316** · 06-30-2009 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Every player should be analyzed either he is LAGGY or LAGGISH or whatever.

Why is someone loose/passive? Impatience, lack of skills, adjustment to players/table conditions, setting up a metagame etc...

Make a psychological sketch, recreate his mind and play "with him". Know his decisions even before he knows them himself.

i'm by no means trying to get defensive, but i don't really know what you're getting at. i started to guess that he was getting to play more "frustrated" due to metagame and his own lack of ability to deal with being played back at.

i know that "frustrated" play means different things to different people. sometimes it means calling down everything with MP because they can't have it every time (especially common among the station folk). for others it means overadjusting and trying to outbluff the other player (a trickier circumstances to deal with). i showed him the K4s hand because his timing tells were starting to tell me that he started to hate folding his marginal hands.

i guess that means that he was going to turn into more of a station than a laggtard, so i probably should have adjusted by betting more as opposed to adjusting by letting him bluff at me?

i'm not looking for the one magical answer i'm just trying to figure out what you're getting at here

06-30-2009 03:29 AM

wow, bet the turn in hand 2, how THE FUCK would he know that you improved that card
you have the betting lead from the flop
ok so say he has trips, but his kicker sucks
he's just going to check it back and call a river bet

if you bet, he's going to have to make a decision for his stack
if you check, you'll never get his entire stack

**daven** · 06-30-2009 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Hand 1: Looks fine
Hand 2: Looks fine until you fuck up the turn

**kmind** · 06-30-2009 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Hand 1: Looks fine
Hand 2: Looks fine until you fuck up the turn

For sure

I'd raise cbets semi-often vs. these 100% cbet LAGs if I know they'll fold often and this hand is fine for our range.

**Sir Pawnalot** · 06-30-2009 06:28 PM

Knowing the cause makes it easier to know the solution.

**Hawk** · 06-30-2009 08:20 PM

Am I nuts for wanting to 3bet a player like this in hand 1? I've been focusing more lately on isolating bad loose players, and this seems like it might not be a terrible spot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and tell me why).

First, he's playing a ton of hands, and even UTG you might have him dominated w/ AJ (you might be dominated yourself ofc), but you are probably at least ahead of his range. I don't think most 52/25's are aware enough to fold bad hands to 3bets to knock out all those dominated/behind hands (maybe this is where my thinking is off, if it is. I often have a hard time grasping what players that are so far on the other side of the poker spectrum than I am tend to think).

Raising also forces everyone else to play their hands straightforward, folding all but their best hands whereas they probably call with a wide range if loose player opens UTG and (assumingly) taggish player isn't strong enough to 3bet him.

**surviva316** · 06-30-2009 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

Am I nuts for wanting to 3bet a player like this in hand 1? I've been focusing more lately on isolating bad loose players, and this seems like it might not be a terrible spot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and tell me why).

First, he's playing a ton of hands, and even UTG you might have him dominated w/ AJ (you might be dominated yourself ofc), but you are probably at least ahead of his range. I don't think most 52/25's are aware enough to fold bad hands to 3bets to knock out all those dominated/behind hands (maybe this is where my thinking is off, if it is. I often have a hard time grasping what players that are so far on the other side of the poker spectrum than I am tend to think).

Raising also forces everyone else to play their hands straightforward, folding all but their best hands whereas they probably call with a wide range if loose player opens UTG and (assumingly) taggish player isn't strong enough to 3bet him.

i wouldn't say your nuts, but i think AJo is just a little too light for my liking. i mean on an A-high flop we get value out of like AT and that's it and on a J-high flop we get value outta like KJ and maybe QJ. also his fold to cbet was really low and i don't keep a fold to cbet in 3bet pots in my hud (should prolly start doin' that).

06-29-2009 05:04 PM #1
surviva316 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Visit Homepage Join Date Feb 2009 Posts 2,797 Location missing deadlines, pissing people off, frustrating myself	Working on exploiting LAggish player HAND 1: I had like 40 hands on villain at this point, but hadn't seen him show anything down (i had made him pay for limp/calling with a few cbets before this, but that's our only history). he was running 52/25/3 or something at the time of the hand. street by street thoughts below: Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com UTG ($10.34) Hero (MP) ($14.48) Button ($12.78) SB ($18.50) BB ($9.67) Preflop: Hero is MP with , UTG bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 3 folds maybe it's nitty of me, but this is actually a borderline call for me. i usually make the call but i always have to think about it first. i saw his 25% PFR and figured he wasn't very positionally aware and was almost certain this was an opponent i could position pwn if given the right flop, so i call. Flop: ($0.85) , , (2 players) UTG bets $0.85, Hero raises to $2.50, UTG calls $1.65 his cbet% was 100 (i had factored this going into the flop), and seeing as how he'd raised 1/4 of his first 40 hands i figured he had cbet 10 times which is a large enough sample for me to start to figure he cbets air. i have outs against his range, so i try to take it down here. i'm guessing floating is actually a better option here, especially because we have position? Turn: ($5.85) (2 players) UTG checks, Hero checks no way i'm barrelling this turn. River: ($5.85) (2 players) UTG checks, Hero checks i thought long and hard about bluffing again here, but couldn't justify it based on ranges. i dont' think he's ever folding a K here if he didn't on the flop, and the more T's and QQ and JJ type hands i put into his range, the looser of a fish he is for calling the flop so the more likely he is to call a river bluff even if he shouldn't. please shit on my thought process so i can learn and grow... HAND 2: same opponent like 50 hands later. now i have a bit more history because he saw me raise his cbet as a bluff (the hand before), and like two hands before this, i raised with K4s on the BU when he limped UTG, and delayed cbet an A-high board with no outs. he folded after thinking long and hard and i showed my garbage because i felt i was starting to get to him. i also had picked up a few reads by now but the only relavent one to this hand is that he ended up showing down AT in hand 1 of this post (meaning he's willing to continue with marginal hands to a flop raise). i hate to be that dude who posts about maximizing value with an f'ing boat but i have to start figuring out how to exploit against specific types of fish Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com MP ($3.05) CO ($7.49) Button ($19.09) SB ($2.40) Hero (BB) ($11.99) UTG ($17.29) Preflop: Hero is BB with , 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks Flop: ($0.40) , , (4 players) SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, CO raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.20, CO calls $0.80 the second i make this bet i regret that it's not bigger. i like auto half pot flops that are this bone dry, but i shoulda been more concerned about building a big pot rather than merging ranges. he min raises so i figure he likes his hand. should i raise more here? i don't want to push 98o off the hand and i he doesn't have TT+ 'cause my notes show that he PFR's his good hands. so the second he minraises i figure i might be able to get his stack but have a hard time imagining what he has, so i'm trying to get him to bluff his stack away. Turn: ($2.80) (2 players) Hero checks, CO checks i feel a bet here makes him suspicious. before the turn even came i thought i was either going to have to insta-check or long-think/bet here in order to get the desired results of having him bang his head against the wall some more. am i getting too tricky? River: ($2.80) (2 players) Hero bets $2.40 i'm obviously betting here. i'm never expecting him to call a CRAI and think there's a chance he'll push over because i'm not repping much (i've never seen him bluff without a draw though). bet sizing also seems fine to me but everything's up for discussion.
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06-29-2009 05:43 PM #2
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Hand 1: Looks fine Hand 2: Looks fine until you fuck up the turn
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06-29-2009 07:01 PM #3
ColdDecked View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2009 Posts 257	Hand 1: looks okay Hand 2: If he's calling your flop 3 bet, I don't think he's calling a turn blank (or what would appear to be a blank), so bet turn. Around $2.20-2.50 should set you up well enough for a river shove.

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06-29-2009 08:37 PM #4
Sir Pawnalot View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2009 Posts 765 Location Norway	To get better at playing LAGGY opponents you must understand them. 1. Practice making psychological judgements of opponents- how is their emotional state? What kind of persona are we dealing with? 2. Are there any rational reasons why a player is LAGGY? If there are, you must be wary of assuming that the player is LAGGY de facto. General tip: Represent missed overs against AGGRO players.
	A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes. A smart man learns only from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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06-29-2009 08:41 PM #5
surviva316 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Visit Homepage Join Date Feb 2009 Posts 2,797 Location missing deadlines, pissing people off, frustrating myself	Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot To get better at playing LAGGY opponents you must understand them. 1. Practice making psychological judgements of opponents- how is their emotional state? What kind of persona are we dealing with? 2. Are there any rational reasons why a player is LAGGY? If there are, you must be wary of assuming that the player is LAGGY de facto. General tip: Represent missed overs against AGGRO players. fwiw, i really meant it when i said laggISH, 'cause the player's a lot looser than he is aggressive. in fact i hadn't seen him show down any bluffs. i knew he was loose because of his +50 vpip and his call with MPTK when i raised his cbet. i really just meant a very loose player who's capable of aggression and is probably getting f'ing sick of me playing back at him
	Once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing.
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06-29-2009 08:52 PM #6
Sir Pawnalot View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2009 Posts 765 Location Norway	Every player should be analyzed either he is LAGGY or LAGGISH or whatever. Why is someone loose/passive? Impatience, lack of skills, adjustment to players/table conditions, setting up a metagame etc... Make a psychological sketch, recreate his mind and play "with him". Know his decisions even before he knows them himself.
	A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes. A smart man learns only from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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06-30-2009 03:18 AM #7
surviva316 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Visit Homepage Join Date Feb 2009 Posts 2,797 Location missing deadlines, pissing people off, frustrating myself	Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot Every player should be analyzed either he is LAGGY or LAGGISH or whatever. Why is someone loose/passive? Impatience, lack of skills, adjustment to players/table conditions, setting up a metagame etc... Make a psychological sketch, recreate his mind and play "with him". Know his decisions even before he knows them himself. i'm by no means trying to get defensive, but i don't really know what you're getting at. i started to guess that he was getting to play more "frustrated" due to metagame and his own lack of ability to deal with being played back at. i know that "frustrated" play means different things to different people. sometimes it means calling down everything with MP because they can't have it every time (especially common among the station folk). for others it means overadjusting and trying to outbluff the other player (a trickier circumstances to deal with). i showed him the K4s hand because his timing tells were starting to tell me that he started to hate folding his marginal hands. i guess that means that he was going to turn into more of a station than a laggtard, so i probably should have adjusted by betting more as opposed to adjusting by letting him bluff at me? i'm not looking for the one magical answer i'm just trying to figure out what you're getting at here
	Once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing.
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06-30-2009 03:29 AM #8
Guest	wow, bet the turn in hand 2, how THE FUCK would he know that you improved that card you have the betting lead from the flop ok so say he has trips, but his kicker sucks he's just going to check it back and call a river bet if you bet, he's going to have to make a decision for his stack if you check, you'll never get his entire stack

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06-30-2009 06:53 AM #9
daven View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message trolling freetrollers Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 7,089 Location soaking up ethanol, moving on up	Originally Posted by spoonitnow Hand 1: Looks fine Hand 2: Looks fine until you fuck up the turn
	don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit allin, reload, repeat please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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06-30-2009 02:25 PM #10
kmind View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2006 Posts 5,620 Location Not Giving In	Originally Posted by daven Originally Posted by spoonitnow Hand 1: Looks fine Hand 2: Looks fine until you fuck up the turn For sure I'd raise cbets semi-often vs. these 100% cbet LAGs if I know they'll fold often and this hand is fine for our range.

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06-30-2009 06:28 PM #11
Sir Pawnalot View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2009 Posts 765 Location Norway	Knowing the cause makes it easier to know the solution.
	A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes. A smart man learns only from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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06-30-2009 08:20 PM #12
Hawk View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2007 Posts 1,626	Am I nuts for wanting to 3bet a player like this in hand 1? I've been focusing more lately on isolating bad loose players, and this seems like it might not be a terrible spot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and tell me why). First, he's playing a ton of hands, and even UTG you might have him dominated w/ AJ (you might be dominated yourself ofc), but you are probably at least ahead of his range. I don't think most 52/25's are aware enough to fold bad hands to 3bets to knock out all those dominated/behind hands (maybe this is where my thinking is off, if it is. I often have a hard time grasping what players that are so far on the other side of the poker spectrum than I am tend to think). Raising also forces everyone else to play their hands straightforward, folding all but their best hands whereas they probably call with a wide range if loose player opens UTG and (assumingly) taggish player isn't strong enough to 3bet him.

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06-30-2009 08:56 PM #13
surviva316 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Visit Homepage Join Date Feb 2009 Posts 2,797 Location missing deadlines, pissing people off, frustrating myself	Originally Posted by Hawkfan79 Am I nuts for wanting to 3bet a player like this in hand 1? I've been focusing more lately on isolating bad loose players, and this seems like it might not be a terrible spot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and tell me why). First, he's playing a ton of hands, and even UTG you might have him dominated w/ AJ (you might be dominated yourself ofc), but you are probably at least ahead of his range. I don't think most 52/25's are aware enough to fold bad hands to 3bets to knock out all those dominated/behind hands (maybe this is where my thinking is off, if it is. I often have a hard time grasping what players that are so far on the other side of the poker spectrum than I am tend to think). Raising also forces everyone else to play their hands straightforward, folding all but their best hands whereas they probably call with a wide range if loose player opens UTG and (assumingly) taggish player isn't strong enough to 3bet him. i wouldn't say your nuts, but i think AJo is just a little too light for my liking. i mean on an A-high flop we get value out of like AT and that's it and on a J-high flop we get value outta like KJ and maybe QJ. also his fold to cbet was really low and i don't keep a fold to cbet in 3bet pots in my hud (should prolly start doin' that).
	Once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing.
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