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Robb
Old 12-15-2008, 04:49 PM     Post subject: Winning the Preflop Battle #1 (permalink)  
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 For my 1500th post, I wanted to address something significant, like a way to play big hands for more chips. Did you know adding one additional bb to your opening PFR means that each subsequent street has 23.5% more chips in the middle? And that's just heads up. The best thing is that many (most?) poker hands reveal their eventual strength on the flop. If we commit more chips to our best hands preflop, we'll gain more earnings when value betting multiple streets.

To develop a solid preflop strategy, note the following:
1. Many great preflop hands lose most of their value preflop when they miss (AK, AQ, 88, etc).
2. Many mediocre hands gain immense value when the hit the flop hard (small pp's, etc).
3. Raising more ONLY on premium hands is too readable, even for microstakes.
4. Position is much more valuable than card strength for most NLHE hands.
5. Using the suits of the cards in our preflop hand, we can randomize our selection of a preflop raise amount to disguise our intentions.

So our goal should be to play a preflop strategy that allows us to get more chips in with premium hands while leaving opponents unsure of our holdings. Here's the basics of a method I'm testing right now.

Open-raises
EP: 3bb or 3.5bb's
MP/HJ: 3.5 or 4bb's
CO/BTN: 4bb's or 5bb's

How to decide when to raise what? Generally I find that I want to vary my bet (either hi or lo) about 20% of the time for various reasons (like a 30bb agro short stack in the BB, etc), so the remaining 80% of PFR's I randomize as follows.

* For small pp's where I'd like to play it small preflop, I open for the minimum 75% of the time.
* For big preflop value hands like AQ and AJs that need to hit the flop to have big pot possibilities, I open for the maximum 75% of the time.
* For medium pp's, I go half and half.
* Big hands like KK+ and AK I raise the maximum pretty much all the time, but these are hands where I generally want a call and often opt for the minimum in an unopened pot in LP against nitty blinds.

This allows me, without giving away my hand strength, to tailor my preflop bet-sizing to table conditions whenever I wish and either get a bigger pot or smaller one as needed. With mediocre hands, I can decide to "bluff" with a big raise or steal from nits with a small one. Using larger raises for premium hands is a big advantage to control eventual SPR and to get most of the chips in way ahead.

The method I actually use has 3 different preflop raise sizes for each position at the table, with weak and strong hands showing up in all three raise sizes, obviously tilted toward bigger hands having bigger raises.

I have not described each detail of my strategy since it's based on how I play postflop. If you're interested, I will answer more questions later in the thread. I just wanted you to think a bit more about our preflop raises and how you might adjust and earn more profit.

Here are some randomization facts I use:
1. Choose a "key suit," say clubs.
2. Half of all NLHE starting hands have (at least) one club.
3. A quarter of unpaired starting hands have the larger card value as a club.
4. Half of the starting hands with a club in them have that club appear on the left on my screen.

With these proportions, I can distribute my PFR's across an optimal set of raise amounts for each starting hand I play routinely. It would take an opponents tens of thousands of hands against me to realize what I was doing, so it's disguised.

Just some thoughts for y'all to analyze and possibly incorporate into your game.

Merry Christmas, and good luck at the tables.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Old 12-15-2008, 06:56 PM #2 (permalink)  
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but you're raising crap like 56s from BU
why would you put in 5BB with a hand that likes deeper stacks?

I'd go the other way around:
6BB from UTG down to 3BB on BU
also if you get 3b you'd rather play a medium pot in position and a large pot out of position because when you call a 3b OOP you have a better than if you call a 3b IP

so if you're playing a 3b pot IP you'd rather have deeper stacks because you're more likely to hold a small pair or a suited connector that doesn't improve that often (you're calling to bluff your opponent out on a later street and because you'll never get stacked unless it's some huge cooler while you can stack your opponent if he improves at the same time as you)

and in general, your range is that much stronger UTG than button that you'd prefer shallow stacks on the flop because if you flop TPTK you want to be able to go with it

say you raise 6x UTG always
if you pick up AK, you'll make a 12.5BB or larger pot with your raise on the flop

if you're heads-up in a 13BB pot on the flop, you can bet 10BB if you flop TPTK and commit to the hand against your average player... which means that you're going to go all in on the river

if the pot is like 7BB you can't expect an average player to commit to the hand with such a high SPR
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Old 12-15-2008, 06:57 PM #3 (permalink)  
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this is also the reason I 3b 2.5x IP and around 3.5x OOP
not only is my range OOP going to be stronger on average, my hand is easier to play OOP with a low SPR
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Robb
Old 12-15-2008, 07:45 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
but you're raising crap like 56s from BU
why would you put in 5BB with a hand that likes deeper stacks?

I'd go the other way around:
6BB from UTG down to 3BB on BU
I've seen a few FTR guys talk about how they bet more UTG than on the button. I think this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of position. Position is worth more than card strength.

For 56s OTB, the randomness allows me freedom to make a 3bb raise when I want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
also if you get 3b you'd rather play a medium pot in position and a large pot out of position because when you call a 3b OOP you have a better than if you call a 3b IP
If I get 3bet, I don't wanna call it at all, and especially not oop. I consider these options in this order when 3bet: (1) folding, (2) 4betting light and, as a last resort, (3) calling. The last thing I want is to play a big pot oop where I'm not the aggressor. Hero makes more and bigger mistakes oop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
so if you're playing a 3b pot IP you'd rather have deeper stacks because you're more likely to hold a small pair or a suited connector that doesn't improve that often (you're calling to bluff your opponent out on a later street and because you'll never get stacked unless it's some huge cooler while you can stack your opponent if he improves at the same time as you)
You're talking about SPR (stack-to-pot ratio), and I agree that there are hands that work best deep. The variability allows me to get more value out of all of my openings, whether I want to be deep or shallow. But you have to open a certain percentage of hands "non-optimally" to allow you freedom to choose when you'd like to select the perfect SPR-based preflop raise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
and in general, your range is that much stronger UTG than button that you'd prefer shallow stacks on the flop because if you flop TPTK you want to be able to go with it
This seems screwy to me, but it makes sense given that you said above you'd like to play big pots oop where villain 3bet and you called. Since I can't imagine a hand where I'd enjoy doing that, I can't really comment except to say that I generally raise a half bb more with AK/AQ hands from UTG and UTG+1 because of their general postflop playability, even oop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
say you raise 6x UTG always
if you pick up AK, you'll make a 12.5BB or larger pot with your raise on the flop
if you're heads-up in a 13BB pot on the flop, you can bet 10BB if you flop TPTK and commit to the hand against your average player... which means that you're going to go all in on the river

if the pot is like 7BB you can't expect an average player to commit to the hand with such a high SPR
This is true regardless of position. My goal is play every hand for good SPR value from all positions, which is why I'm "mixing up" preflop raise sizes a bit. When I deviate from a "standard" opening amount, I don't want it to be unusual. You just choose the percentages so that you're opening "non-optimally" very rarely - just enough to get noticed.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Old 12-16-2008, 09:16 AM #5 (permalink)  
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It's easier to play TPTK in position, so we don't necessarily need to commit to the hand
so if you get AK on the button and flop TPTK you can cbet the flop and check the turn back which means you're not getting stacked on the river since the villain will have to put in a raise to get you all in

if you never call 3b OOP then I'll just 3b you ATC IP and I will show a profit
because even if you start 4b me light, I can 5b shove you to counter that

in the end, if I use two tools, 4betting and calling a 3b and you use only 4betting, I will win more money because I have more flexibility

that said, I have made a few calls OOP that I shouldn't have

about big pots:
imagine we stack off preflop, what does position mean? it means nothing
the bigger the pot, the less value position has
in SNGs, being OOP is an advantage sometimes when you can call a PFR and shove any flop
this is because the SPR is less than 2

when the SPR is very low, it's pretty much "hit top pair and stack off" so it doesn't matter what position you're in, only the strength of your cards matters

but when you have a suited connector or a small pair, the bigger the SPR the better

You're not raising the suited connectors and small pairs from UTG, so why would you raise smaller?

Say I only raise AK, KQs, AJs+, JJ+ from UTG
do those hands benefit from high SPR or low SPR?
I actually raise more pairs UTG, but that's a small part of my range
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bigspenda73
Old 12-16-2008, 09:34 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 you do realize that by making it 5-6BBs on the button you're effectively shrinking the blinds range to hands that crush your opening range, thus making post-flop an uphill battle do to a large equity disadvantange
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minSim
Old 12-16-2008, 09:34 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Robb, there's another fundamental concept that says to bet/raise more with a stronger raise (EP) and less with a weaker range (LP).

Fwiw I've heard a lot of good players advocate raising more from EP than LP, for a lot of reasons. I'm very positive it's true.
There are a lot of things to consider, but these players saying it really should make you believe it.

Something like 4bb from EP/3bb from LP, or 3,5bb/2,5bb.

If you're lazy, just go with anything from 3-4bb from any position.

It's also important to understand that there's a reason that for some players (gameplans/strategies) 4bb is best and for some 3bb.
(this one has a lot to do with my first sentence)
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Robb
Old 12-16-2008, 06:19 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
you do realize that by making it 5-6BBs on the button you're effectively shrinking the blinds range to hands that crush your opening range, thus making post-flop an uphill battle do to a large equity disadvantange
True, but I'm NOT opening 6bb (unless there's a couple of limpers). I'm still opening about 60% of my BTN pots for 4bb's, with the occasional 3.5bb, or 4.5bb open thrown in. (I VERY rarely open 5bb, I simplified strategy above so post wasn't 2 pages long and to get people thinking/responding about general ideas instead of specifics.) The change doesn't have to be drastic to get a 12-15% increase in pot size on later streets on the hands we want to play big. I just wanna be able to put more money in (or LESS) when I need to without it being obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minSim
Robb, there's another fundamental concept that says to bet/raise more with a stronger raise (EP) and less with a weaker range (LP).

Fwiw I've heard a lot of good players advocate raising more from EP than LP, for a lot of reasons. I'm very positive it's true.
There are a lot of things to consider, but these players saying it really should make you believe it.

Something like 4bb from EP/3bb from LP, or 3,5bb/2,5bb.

If you're lazy, just go with anything from 3-4bb from any position.

It's also important to understand that there's a reason that for some players (gameplans/strategies) 4bb is best and for some 3bb.
(this one has a lot to do with my first sentence)
Right. I've seen players I respect raising more EP than LP. It still makes no sense to me. oop sucks postflop. I've got an open mind, but I will reserve judgment. I was hoping one of the top regs who plays that way joined the discussion and shot down all my ideas.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Jager
Old 12-16-2008, 08:14 PM #9 (permalink)  
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This whole concept is not good. The larger you make the pot preflop, the more you are DECREASING your edge postflop, given that you can outplay your opponents postflop. I actually increased my winrate by lowering my preflop raise from 4bb to 3bb when I open, and I do this from all positions. There are much better ways to play big pots with big hands.
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bigred
Old 12-16-2008, 09:18 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
This whole concept is not good. The larger you make the pot preflop, the more you are DECREASING your edge postflop, given that you can outplay your opponents postflop. I actually increased my winrate by lowering my preflop raise from 4bb to 3bb when I open, and I do this from all positions. There are much better ways to play big pots with big hands.
Yeah, I like making smaller raises preflop as well. It keeps pots smaller and keeps me from spewing like the donk I am. It's either that or move up to higher stakes where they respect my raises.
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Robb
Old 12-16-2008, 10:08 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 I appreciate everybody's thoughts. I know from threads in the forums that I think about preflop differently than a lot of folks, so I'm happy to hear from y'all where you think I'm wacko. I'm learning.

I agree that small open raises can benefit a lot of hands which is one reason I'm interested in varying my play preflop.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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daven
Old 12-17-2008, 04:04 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 nice concept post.

i just bet pot cos i'm a fish

you could reverse the raise size by position thing i.e. raise static in ep/mp, and same/less in lp.

based on reads when stealing, you should sometimes be opening less with your steals.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:40 AM #13 (permalink)  
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I minraise vs. two nits (less than 10 vpip) from bu
if they're like normal nits they'll fold even though it's a minraise

I really don't want to play ANY pot when they volunatarily put in money, so why put in more money than I have to?

against two fish in the blinds I actually just open fold a lot or 3.5x it when I think I'm going to get money in when ahead
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kmind
Old 12-17-2008, 07:59 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 I definitely like your posts but I definitely disagree with the reasons already posted. This post does absolutely nothing and is not needed but thought I'd voice my opinion.
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daven
Old 12-17-2008, 08:34 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
This post does absolutely nothing and is not needed but thought I'd voice my opinion.
disagree, e.g. this
Quote:
Originally Posted by robb
Did you know adding one additional bb to your opening PFR means that each subsequent street has 23.5% more chips in the middle?
should be interesting to some people. Although should mention that it's dependent on bet sizing relative to pot per street ratio consistency etc....
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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oskar
Old 12-17-2008, 02:12 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 My take on the EP vs. LP open raising amount is that you simply have more feeesh that could call when you open from EP. Plus your range is pretty damn tight anyway, so you don't really have to worry about people exploiting it.

I have varied my raising range a great deal, and it has worked out. If you have a couple of gamboolers to your left who will want to see a flop with any 2 cards of the same color or gap connectors, then by all means I would raise as much as they call.
If there are a couple of reasonable players among the group left to act then I probably either adjust the amount I'm opening for, or I'm just opening a tighter range... or like Robb suggested - vary it. Raise QK for 3-4x+1 70% of the time and for 5-6x 30%. And open AQs+, JJ+ for 5-6x.
I zoomed past 10NL in a month raising 5-10x but only a 8% range, and got lots of lol'z when I mentioned it. If you can isolate some total donks that way, why not?

I'd say it's very dependent on the table. If you open 4x from EP and you have two stations to your left, then the rest of the table is getting a great price to call, and you'll end up in a 5-way pot, when a more aggressive raise gets you a HU to 3-way pot most of the time with people who are essentially dead money.
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kmind
Old 12-17-2008, 04:52 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
This post does absolutely nothing and is not needed but thought I'd voice my opinion.
disagree, e.g. this
Quote:
Originally Posted by robb
Did you know adding one additional bb to your opening PFR means that each subsequent street has 23.5% more chips in the middle?
should be interesting to some people. Although should mention that it's dependent on bet sizing relative to pot per street ratio consistency etc....
No I meant MY post was irrelevant as I didn't have anything really extra to say other than "I disagree" because the others have voiced the same opinions I have.
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