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Winning The Low Limit Games

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Faulkdogg

10-18-2004, 05:33 PM Post subject: Winning The Low Limit Games

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 6

what does everyone feel is a good strategy for playing the low limit NL and Limit holdem games online? In my opinion it's too hard to beat these low games because most of the people are playing poorly. Should I play tight aggressive or just plain aggressive. The only strategy I seem to win with is play pretty much any hand within reason and make plays on people since it is so obvious when people miss draws. When ever I try to play tight aggressive it seems my hands always get cracked because I always have three or four people drawing to me. When I play looser I can't consistantly win I tend to go way up and way down. I've read all the good poker books (super system, advanced holdem, poker theory, ect.) But when I see Phil Helmuth losing consintently on UB at the 50cent table it's hard for me to understand how people do well in these games. I know in the long run I can beat most of the people in these rooms heads up but when you are up against 7 people who will chase the flush or straight everytime you just get out drawn on too much. I don't yet have the bank roll to play in the higher limit games which will take away alot of the bad play. What is everyones strategies?

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Fnord

10-18-2004, 05:36 PM Post subject: Re: Winning The Low Limit Games

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Faulkdogg

In my opinion it's too hard to beat these low games because most of the people are playing poorly.

Clearly we should be playing the Brunson private game. We have no hope against these bad players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Manomanman

10-18-2004, 05:59 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 122

I got tired of losing to these poor players, so I went to Bellagio and won $15000 playing against Phil Ivey in a high stakes cash game. He was easy to beat compared to the people who had no idea what they were doing.

Ok, I digress. Bad play doesn't cost you money. You just have to adapt to it and factor it into your strategy. Sometimes what you think of as bad play is just "erratic" behavior from newbies. You have to separate unpredictible behavior (good play) from suboptimal erratic behavior (poor play), and then you'll have a better idea how to crack the low limit games.

Also, you can't play in games where the rake is killing you. High stakes games and tournies generally aren't raked as harshly.

P.S. Your question has been answered many times in this forum. Search the past and you'll find some good stuff.

Faulkdogg

10-18-2004, 06:09 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 6

Im not saying I rather play against top pros. But there is no way to put a bad player on a hand or bet him out if he has third pair. If you are playing one or two in a room its not bad, but if everone always chases pretty much regaurdless of what they have it's hard for aces to win because someone is bound to catch something. I've played in games where every round the betting was capped and a guy called all the way with a 8-4 suited and caught a flush on 5th street. What can you do about that? I was playing omaha and I had trip aces on fourth street, I bet the pot putting three people all in and they all called with a diamond draw and it hit. I know bad beats happen and in the long you should win, it just seems like too often luck over runs skill.

lonnie

10-18-2004, 06:19 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 923

Faulkdogg -

You need to change your game up when you're up against a large field.

If there are 3 hearts on the board, 5 players in the hand, and someone is betting aggressively - they just might have made a flush.

If there is an open end straight on the board - someone WILL have it.

In multi-way action, it pays to "chase". You need to chase better than your 'bad opponents'.

Faulkdogg

10-18-2004, 06:21 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 6

good advice thank you

stuck

10-18-2004, 06:22 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 586

In the low limit tables, you shouldn't try to bluff people out of pots if their unbluffable. Instead, focus on getting them to put as much money into the pot as possible when you have the best hand and getting out of dodge when you don't have a hand.

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

fishstick

10-18-2004, 06:39 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faulkdogg

But there is no way to put a bad player on a hand or bet him out if he has third pair.

and how hard would it be to put gus hansen or sam farha on a hand (they both play a lot of hands). or dan harrington, usually pretty tight, except for his occasional bluff.

my experience is with party (the $25 NL game) and poker stars (the .10/.25 NL game). both are quite beatable. on party, more people will see the flop - they play tighter (slightly better) on stars.

play tight aggressive, and play your hands hard. are you calling where you should be raising or folding? what's your PF raising %? do you bet on the flop after you've raised preflop and it's checked to you or you are first to act (regardless of whether you hit anything - i would estimate i win the hand doing this ~70% of the time, and if i don't win the hand on the flop, it typically buys me a free turn card)? are you overplaying top pair? going broke in unraised pots?

here's a case in point from last night. a tight no limit table, in the last 10 hands, 4 hands have been folded around to the blinds, and i get AA. great, i'm probably not going to get any action. so i decide to limp with AA and hope someone catches the flop, but not better than me. i will not normally limp with aces, i think it's a bad play, but the table "dynamic" calls for an adjustment in the way i normally play. and very importantly, if i get outdrawn, i will not complain about it because i've chosen to "adjust" my play.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed)

MP3 ($22.15)
fishstick ($13.90)
Button ($7.85)
SB ($21.60)
BB ($9.60)
UTG ($27)
UTG+1 ($25.45)
MP1 ($15.80)
MP2 ($9.80)

Preflop: fishstick is CO with A

, A

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, fishstick calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB raises to $0.75, BB folds, fishstick raises to $2, Button folds, SB raises to $21, fishstick calls $11.90 (All-In).

Flop: ($35.40) K

, T

, 3

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($35.40) T

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($35.40) A

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $35.40

Results in white below:
SB has Jd Jc (two pair, jacks and tens).
fishstick has As Ac (full house, aces full of tens).
Outcome: fishstick wins $28.30. SB wins $7.10.

in this case, my adjusted play pushed someone into making a big mistake. if he'd outdrawn me, i still stand behind my play as the right move given the circumstances.

if you continue to make the right move, regardless of whether you win one hand, you will be a long term winner.

too many people are beating these games to call them unbeatable - look to your own game for holes and make overall and situational adjustments where needed.

i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...

Aceofone

10-18-2004, 09:32 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 497

A while ago, I asked myself if I wanted to play poker, because it's easy to make money through Taggy play and table selection, or because I want to be the best player I can be. In our home games, any type of player can show up, I need to be able to play against laggs, taggs, rocks, bluffers, etc.

Moral of the story: expand your game, play the tough games once in a while.

twosevoff

10-18-2004, 11:01 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 526

IMO, limping AA when you're first in is always a good move, unless maybe you're at a passive loose game where they will call many raises preflop but rarely raise preflop.

fishstick

10-19-2004, 01:16 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Location: Carlsbad, CA

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Quote:

Originally Posted by twosevoff

IMO, limping AA when you're first in is always a good move, unless maybe you're at a passive loose game where they will call many raises preflop but rarely raise preflop.

at this point in my playing, i really don't like letting the blinds get in cheap on a full table if i'm playing a big pair. it has to be a really tight table, and i have to be in late position before i'll even consider it.

that said, i do tend to play my big pairs hard preflop. but, i also have a good win rate with them (especially in NL).

if you limp, it seems like you're just asking for the BB with 94 off to hit two pair on the flop.

i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...

ginko

10-25-2004, 05:51 AM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 6

Thing is fish stick, you had no idea what you opponent had. If the table is tight and someone reraises 21 dollars, does that not scream "set", "2pair", "QJ"?

I think you were lucky the guy was an idiot who went allin with JJ on a K high board(unless you knew he was an idiot). Fact is you called his raise blind and excused it off because the results were good.

If the table is so tight, either 1) leave 2) don't play ABC poker. Mix it up.

I'm not saying the preflop play was bad. But imagine if your opponent held a set. Wouldn't the money still have gone in? EV- for sure.

As for strategy on loose low NL games, I'd say play your good hands strong, but not to strong(because getting sucked out for your entire stack is very TILTY). Play more mediocre hands that are above theirs. Like top pair with a medium kicker. Play draw hands aggressively, and when you hit, bet huge to make it look like your bluffing. Bluff if people are folding after the flop, don't bluff if your vs calling stations.

These tables are tough because although the table is loose, your often in a pot with a tight/semi-loose player who actually has something. If you see someone overplaying suited cards(like so many people do), and you feel they are on a flush draw, RAISE big. Don't pay them off when they do hit(this is a big one).

Contrare to what people think, reading weak players is easier sometimes since they don't disguise their hands. Some will call with nothing, and raise with monsters. Others will always raise with ANY pair, and raise huge with a monster.

Figure out each guy, and abuse his weakness.

fishstick

10-25-2004, 06:05 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginko

Thing is fish stick, you had no idea what you opponent had. If the table is tight and someone reraises 21 dollars, does that not scream "set", "2pair", "QJ"?

what are you talking about?

. you're right, preflop, i have no idea what the guy had. but i do know i had AA - so, who cares what he had. if anyone ever wants to go all-in with me preflop when i'm holding AA, i will call with my entire stack, my watch, the clothes i'm wearing, and whatever else i can push in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginko

I think you were lucky the guy was an idiot who went allin with JJ on a K high board(unless you knew he was an idiot). Fact is you called his raise blind and excused it off because the results were good.

once again, k high board? the action all took place preflop. and once again, with AA, i will call anything preflop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginko

If the table is so tight, either 1) leave 2) don't play ABC poker. Mix it up.

i'm confused again??? not initially raising with my AA preflop is mixing it up for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginko

I'm not saying the preflop play was bad. But imagine if your opponent held a set. Wouldn't the money still have gone in? EV- for sure.

how do you have a set preflop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginko

As for strategy on loose low NL games, I'd say play your good hands strong, but not to strong(because getting sucked out for your entire stack is very TILTY).Play more mediocre hands that are above theirs. Like top pair with a medium kicker.

hmmm, sounds very weak/passive.

all i can say is you're welcome at my table anytime.

i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...

melinda27

10-25-2004, 10:52 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 165

I dont understand the complaints, you complain that they call you down on a flush draw. So 2/3 of the time they are giving you their money, and 1/3 of the time you have to lay down your hand when they hit and avoid paying them off, and all you lose are the flop and turn bets that they called and nothing more usually. You are complaining that they call you down with 3rd pair, well...what are you doing in a hand where you cant beat 3rd pair? I dont see how any of these things are problems, they seem like great poker games to play in to me.

fishstick

10-25-2004, 11:12 PM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

Quote:

Originally Posted by melinda27

very nicely put!

and our job, is to make sure (at least in no limit) that we ruin they're drawing odds.

and then all is right in the world...

i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...

ginko

10-26-2004, 04:30 AM

#16 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 6

Ok I feel like an idiot. I thought the action was on the flop... not preflop. Misread your post.

Good play then, lol.

And when I said don't play your strong hands too strong, I meant after the the flop(TPTK,overpair, any hand thats pretty).

If I led you to believe that I call all the time, I'm sorry. That's not the case at all. I was just saying that terrible players can spike 2 pair on the river for your entire stack, which might send you on tilt.

fishstick

10-26-2004, 06:18 AM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginko

no worries on the misread.

regarding playing strong hands "too" strong: i'd rather play it hard and take the occasional bad beat from some bozo spiking a lucky river card because my aggressive betting will mean he's calling incorrectly.

i'll even compliment him on his play, and then make a note in poker tracker so that i can be sure to find my new found buddy again.

i'm pretty much past the point of bad beats putting me on tilt. bad beats are annoying, but if people weren't playing this way, how would we make money...

i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...

DrNoChance

10-26-2004, 01:05 PM

#18 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

One little thing I thought I'd throw in is that playing against crappy players, while very profitable long term, does involve increased variance. There's no way you shouldn't beat these games long term if you've plugged all of your leaks, but you can expect to take some brutal short term losses at times. Yes, with multiple people calling down all of your bets with big hands, they won't hold up as often. But when they do hold up, you make so much more because of the chasers.

Remember a couple of key points:

Don't pay off chasers (especially flush chasers...so many people play suited junk!)

Don't play while on tilt

Don't try to bluff bad players (exception: As fishstick noted, backing up pre-flop raises with post-flop bets is ok against all but the fishiest calling stations. Your post-flop bet in a raised pot is usually big enough to fold out people without a solid hand, and it's usually heads up if you raised pre-flop so you only have to bluff out one other player. Save your bluffs for raised pots.)

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