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Pingviini
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02-17-2006, 03:31 PM
Post subject: why and when to 3-bet PF?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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Why do you 3-bet PF? What are the biggest factors for your decision whether to 3-bet or not in that particular situation?
I dont want any "I dont 3-bet" or "I min 3-bet only with AA/KK" type of answers.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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arkana
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,109
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OOP on a very draw heavy board where I know my opponent has a good hand that he wont fold to a 3-bet but might fold when a scaredcard hits ie 2 pair on a monotone board vs overpair (in this case he could have overpair + flush draw so best to get money in while ahead).
Multiway pot where there has been a bet and a raise already by two other players or when i bet and someone raises and there is a coldcaller.
When I can get an opponent all in with a reasonable sized 3-bet for example he only has 3/4 pot left after his raise the i can just go ahead and 3-bet him all in if i believe i have the best hand.
Main reasons are:
-When I believe the opponent will call but might fold if i dont and a scarecard hits.
-When I can sandwich a raiser between me and a coldcaller (who likely has the weakest hand) and I can get the original raiser to fold the best hand.
I rarely 3-bet though.
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johnny_fish
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02-17-2006, 04:10 PM
Post subject: Re: why and when to 3-bet PF?
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#3 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pingviini
Why do you 3-bet PF? What are the biggest factors for your decision whether to 3-bet or not in that particular situation?
I dont want any "I dont 3-bet" or "I min 3-bet only with AA/KK" type of answers.
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When I think my hand is better than a short stack's range I push. I rarely 3-bet though, it's -EV to give away you have AA.
I play only full ring though.
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Iconoclastic
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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I 3-bet yesterday against a Rock who called my 3-bet and then called my AI/Pot bet on the Flop with...ATd...that completely missed the Flop.
I open up my range against Maniacs commiserate with his reraising range.
Any other 3betting PF in Full Ring games besides AA/KK is FPS and a leak.
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What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?
A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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I am asking about pre-flop. PF = pre-flop
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
When I think my hand is better than a short stack's range I push. I rarely 3-bet though, it's -EV to give away you have AA.
I play only full ring though.
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How does 3-betting give away that you have AA?
Keep in mind, preflop, the BB is considered the first bet, so a raise would be considered a 2-bet, and a reraise the 3-bet.
Ping: I know you have been playing 5/10 NL, which I have never played, so take my advice fwiw.
When I 3-bet, it's generally a situation where I think my hand is significantly ahead of my opponent's range, I want to play for stacks (or just quickly take down the pot, *ahem AK*), information leakage isn't an overly huge concern (keep in mind it shows the strength of your hand, but also somewhat reveals the strength of your opponent's hand), and ideally I'm in position.
Comparing a 3-bet range when a laggy co opens for 4x and you are on the button, is worlds apart from say, a tight UTG raiser opens for 4x and it folds to your BB. One might make the argument that, being OOP, you want to be more agressive and quickly take down the pot. I think that's kind of flawed thinking though, and think that Fnord's frequent advice of not building a pot OOP with a well-defined hand applies much better in these situations.
In my first example (laggy co opens, i'm OTB), my range could be as wide as say, JJ-AA, AQs+, AKo or so. Same situation, but it's a tight UTG raiser and i'm OTB, maybe QQ+. If I'm in the blinds, I become very cautious about 3-betting unmade hands. Facing a tight/tricky player, I often even have reservations about doing it with as strong of a hand as QQ. In that situation, my range is probably like QQ+.
Like I said, take my advice fwiw. It's an area of my game that I'm personally trying to improve on myself. And I think it becomes more important not only to expand this into your own game as you move up, but also understand what other players think on the subject as it gives you some insight into what you should be thinking when you are OOP facing down a 3-bet holding something like AK.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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Quote:
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How does 3-betting give away that you have AA?
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Quote:
I open up my range against Maniacs commiserate with his reraising range.
Any other 3betting PF in Full Ring games besides AA/KK is FPS and a leak.
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I know a lot of guys who min-reraise PF with AA which is just plain horrible. When you reach higher stakes 3-betting comes a useful weapon under certain circumstances, I am curious to find out what the circumstances are 
Also, it is much more useful in short handed games which is what I play. I dont play full ring at all.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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Phil gordon speaks about re-raising PF in tournaments in his book.About "playing great hands when they raise"
He says he is more prone to re-raise PF if he is against a tricky player, if they will overplay their hands like QQ and he has AA, if they overplay their hands post flop.
these all are arguments that do better in tournaments becausee of the blind structure.
I have found myself "defending my blind" in SH games when certain guys raise too often in position, sometimes I raise with AK, sometimes 89s, TT etc. With hands that are not that easily dominated post flop. I dont really re-raise that much in position unless there is a lot of action in front of me and I have perhaps JJ+ and I want to thin the field.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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I raise TT UTG, guy in blinds 3-bets it with his AA. He's literally asking me to outflop him and destack. Because TT is my lucky hand
I'm another person that is curious "what's the point in min 3betting PF?" For me it seems like cardinal mistake, either flat call and play g00t postflop or re-raise bigger than minimum.
Isolation of loose raiser? Isolation of minraising donk? Building the large multiway pot (in PLHE)?
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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I am not even mentioning min-raising here, your re-raise should almost always be 3-4x the initial raise.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iconoclastic
I 3-bet yesterday against a Rock who called my 3-bet and then called my AI/Pot bet on the Flop with...ATd...that completely missed the Flop.
I open up my range against Maniacs commiserate with his reraising range.
Any other 3betting PF in Full Ring games besides AA/KK is FPS and a leak.
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Over 247 hands I've played with you, you've also only raised exactly 1.21% of your hands preflop...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vrax
I raise TT UTG, guy in blinds 3-bets it with his AA. He's literally asking me to outflop him and destack. Because TT is my lucky hand |
I don't know if I necessarily agree with this here. In practice, this may be true with deep stacks, but with only 100bb, I don't really agree. Say you bump it up to 4x UTG with TT in full ring. I'm sitting in the BB with a 100BB stack, you cover, and I bump it up to 15x. This is -ev for you to play here, and that's assuming every time you hit a set (and I don't, and don't improve on later streets) you take my stack.
Quote:
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I'm another person that is curious "what's the point in min 3betting PF?" For me it seems like cardinal mistake, either flat call and play g00t postflop or re-raise bigger than minimum.
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I agree 100%. In the past, I'd take a marginal hand and say.. wow, I'm getting better than 3:1 here, let's see a flop! Now it's just like.. ok my AQs plays like dogshit to his range, lets just muck, but I'll happily call with a pair trying to set and destack. It's really quite a laugh to me when I bump it up to 4x and somebody else makes it 7x to go.
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Iconoclastic
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iconoclastic
I 3-bet yesterday against a Rock who called my 3-bet and then called my AI/Pot bet on the Flop with...ATd...that completely missed the Flop.
I open up my range against Maniacs commiserate with his reraising range.
Any other 3betting PF in Full Ring games besides AA/KK is FPS and a leak.
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Over 247 hands I've played with you, you've also only raised exactly 1.21% of your hands preflop... |
I'm pretty sure it's another guy with a similar name cuz I've only played at UltimateBet, Empire, and Pokerroom recently. And I KNOW my PFR% is over 5%. What's your screenname cuz I don't remember anyone named Lukie.
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What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?
A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Here is my opinion:
Required 3-bet: AA,KK,AKs.
Marginal 3-betting: AKo, QQ, AQs
Read dependant on player: AQo, AJs, JJ
Additional possible 3-bet vs Maniac: TT, ATs,KQs,maaaaaybe AJo.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iconoclastic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iconoclastic
I 3-bet yesterday against a Rock who called my 3-bet and then called my AI/Pot bet on the Flop with...ATd...that completely missed the Flop.
I open up my range against Maniacs commiserate with his reraising range.
Any other 3betting PF in Full Ring games besides AA/KK is FPS and a leak.
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Over 247 hands I've played with you, you've also only raised exactly 1.21% of your hands preflop... |
I'm pretty sure it's another guy with a similar name cuz I've only played at UltimateBet, Empire, and Pokerroom recently. And I KNOW my PFR% is over 5%. What's your screenname cuz I don't remember anyone named Lukie. |
Sorry my fault, on pokerstars there is somebody with your exact screenname. He's very tight-passive preflop.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
Here is my opinion:
Required 3-bet: AA,KK,AKs.
Marginal 3-betting: AKo, QQ, AQs
Read dependant on player: AQo, AJs, JJ
Additional possible 3-bet vs Maniac: TT, ATs,KQs,maaaaaybe AJo.
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This is a horrible way to think about this subject. Only time I would see a "required 3-betting" is that the pot would be big and multiway and I want to improve my chances to win it. -->Thin the field.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i three bet for two reasons.
1. To define it opp wants to play for stacks preflop or wants to see a flop. Therefore i know how good my hand is and what his range thus is.
2. Isolation or encouragement to push from a weaker but still strong hand.
Eg. In a raised-reraised pot id 3 bet TT-KK for isolation and information.
In a mass limped pot with an lp raise my range is wider for isolation only.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i three bet for two reasons.
Eg. In a raised-reraised pot id 3 bet TT-KK for isolation and information.
In a mass limped pot with an lp raise my range is wider for isolation only.
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If you're 3 betting with TT-QQ and you get reraised allin by op, you're obviously against an op with AA,KK assuming your op is decent and doesn't puch with AK,etc. You're not going to call this allin. However, if you call the reraise and flop comes T high with TT. You're potentially destacking op. I think your 3 bet with a weak PP for information is a bad idea. A reraise probably gives you most of the info you need and gives the op a chance to put all his money in. You then eliminate your chance at hitting a set.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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to me a 3 bet generally represents AK AA QQ JJ and surprisingly sometimes TT. A 4 bet almost invariably means KK or AA and I will lay down QQ if I have enough respect for the raiser ( or will call hand play for the set, depending on the pot odds and stack depth).
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
to me a 3 bet generally represents AK AA QQ JJ and surprisingly sometimes TT. A 4 bet almost invariably means KK or AA and I will lay down QQ if I have enough respect for the raiser ( or will call hand play for the set, depending on the pot odds and stack depth).
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I don't know about you but with AA or KK most people don't get to 4bets. The money is in the pot long before then.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
to me a 3 bet generally represents AK AA QQ JJ and surprisingly sometimes TT. A 4 bet almost invariably means KK or AA and I will lay down QQ if I have enough respect for the raiser ( or will call hand play for the set, depending on the pot odds and stack depth).
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I don't know about you but with AA or KK most people don't get to 4bets. The money is in the pot long before then. |
in small stakes (10, 25, 50, etc.) its EXTREMELY common. People are way too obvious with AA and KK at these levels.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Unless the game is really fishy or LAggy, I stay away from pre-flop 3-bets in NL without AA or KK.
Sometimes with KK, I'll do it against a really tight player to see if he pushes. Then I can fold.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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remember the big blind is the first bet...
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