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why are there bad players?

  
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 08-18-2004, 08:55 PM     Post subject: why are there bad players? #1 (permalink)  
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hi all. i am very new to this. actually i've only played one SnG game, and that was it. it was a $10 game on pokerstars, so i guess i started out hardcore. but my friends (who have been playing for a while) helped me out, so i didn't do too badly. i placed 5th after a bad luck draw. i guess that's not bad 1st time around :P

anyways, the prblem i can't seem to understand is why are there so many bad players out there? this website is one of many websites with strategies that allows a player to win. i can't believe that there can be so many ignorant poker players.

what does it take to become good? it obviously doesn't depend on strategies alone. but just knowing the strategies, wouldn't it help you figure out someone else out using the strats? also many people share their ideas and strats without fear of someone else using it back on them. why is that?

besides experience, and just knowing the odds and basics, what does a player need to be good and consistently make a lot of money?
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Old 08-18-2004, 09:06 PM     Post subject: Re: why are there bad players? #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
besides experience, and just knowing the odds and basics, what does a player need to be good and consistently make a lot of money?
Patience. I've found that even some people that understand pot odds and starting hand groupings simply don't have the patience to grind it out. They want to play just for the action, so they often go against what they know -- playing too many hands and calling too much.

Myself, I don't really care about the action. I'm not playing just for fun. I play for profit. I'll fold hands for hours if I'm not getting the cards.

Also, you have to do your due diligence. Study. Not just websites and books (both important), but also study your hand histories. Look for holes in your game. Replaying hands in my head that I'd played weeks before and analyzing them over and again is common for me.


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fishstick
Old 08-18-2004, 09:13 PM     Post subject: Re: why are there bad players? #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
anyways, the prblem i can't seem to understand is why are there so many bad players out there?
i play beach v-ball twice a week. other than that, i don't study strategy or structure my workouts toward "v-ball helping exercises." in other words, i'm happy where i am, and am unwilling to put in more work (other than just playing) to become better. i thinks this accounts for most poker players. so many of the players view it as [relatively] cheap entertainment, even if they lose. me, i play to make money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
what does it take to become good? it obviously doesn't depend on strategies alone.
studying, putting what you've learned into practice, constantly analyzing what did and didn't work, studying... repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
but just knowing the strategies, wouldn't it help you figure out someone else out using the strats?
did he check because he's on a draw? or slowplaying a monster? or dozing in front of his computer? or not very good? sooooo many variables.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
also many people share their ideas and strats without fear of someone else using it back on them. why is that?
the players that really want to get better, and are willing put in the time and work to do it, are (i believe) in the great minority. as long as this is true, there will be plenty of fish in the sea.
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ttanaka
Old 08-18-2004, 10:33 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Most people are idiots, that's why. Sorry, I'm being blunt but honest.

Let's start with 100 typical fish - point them to this website, throw a book at them.

Will they read the website or the book? Maybe. (50%)
(down to 50 fish)

Will they comprehend what they've read? Possibly. (Another 50%)
(down to 25 fish)

Will they actually practice the things they've studied? Unlikely. (Another 20%)
(down to 5 fish)

Will they correctly execute the things they've practiced and studied? Probably not.
(down to 1 lone fishy)

And each day there's 100 new fish entering the pond. So, that's why there are so many poor players out there.

Now some of us, are actually willing to put in what it takes to become succesful, but like others have posted, that is NOT the majority.

The majority is driving their pickup truck through the McDonald's drive-thru hurrying to get home to catch the latest episode of Cops or Springer, and play a couple of online poker hands through their 2400 baud modem during the commercials.

C'mon, who can't beat that game?
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 08-18-2004, 10:37 PM #5 (permalink)  
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thanks for the quick replies!

i guess it's true that to learn to play well enough for profit you'd have to spend a lot of time.

i'm a starving student right now :P and only have so much time and money to try this poker thing out. i watch my friend play and he's consisently winning 1:2. that's pretty good cuz he only plays SnG games, and when he does win he takes 1st or 2nd.

basically, how long did it take and how money money did you spend, until you got good enough to consistently win it all back and then make profit?
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Fnord
Old 08-18-2004, 10:46 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
basically, how long did it take and how money money did you spend, until you got good enough to consistently win it all back and then make profit?
Bought into Party at $500 and played 2/4 and 3/6 limit. Played tight, got lucky and cashed out over $900.

Read this site, moved to NL cash playing the old *amazingly* soft Party $25 full game in its prime. Bought in at $500, blew most of it. Bought in another $500, blew most of that. Then came back hard. Made back my 1k, plus another 1k profit when I started playing other formats here and there. Since then I've been consistantly profitable in just about every format I play in.

If you're new to poker, I strongly recommend the PokerStars penny tables or the Party .5/1 limit game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 08-18-2004, 11:07 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttanaka
Most people are idiots, that's why. Sorry, I'm being blunt but honest.
Lol, case and point. This was posted to the poker alias at work. Just for background, I work at a Software development company known for bright people. A couple players on this alias finished in the money in the last WSOP.

Yet, he still plays half dead 9s with a shitty kicker and pretty much check/calls until he hits his 1 outer.

Seat 1: Our_Hero ($728.50 in chips)
Seat 2: tyrone ($316 in chips)
Seat 3: Flippin Aces ($290 in chips)
Seat 4: Romanichine ($311 in chips)
Seat 5: foxplayer ($45 in chips)
Seat 6: kherd ($282 in chips)
Seat 7: dockseven ($81.50 in chips)
Seat 8: orcslayer ($157 in chips)

Everyone antes 0.50.

*** 3rd STREET ***

Dealt to Our_Hero [9s 9c 5c]
Dealt to tyrone [4h]
Dealt to Flippin Aces [9d]
Dealt to Romanichine [Kc]
Dealt to foxplayer [7s]
Dealt to kherd [6d]
Dealt to dockseven [2c]
Dealt to orcslayer [Ac]

dockseven: brings-in low $2
orcslayer: folds
Our_Hero: calls $2
//this is a loose call, but the K is held by a tight player and Hero has the table running scared
tyrone: folds
Flippin Aces: folds
Romanichine: folds
foxplayer: raises $3 to $5
kherd: calls $5
dockseven: folds
Our_Hero: calls $3
//in for a penny, in for three pounds….


*** 4th STREET ***

Dealt to Our_Hero [9s 9c 5c] [3h]
Dealt to foxplayer [7s] [4d]
Dealt to kherd [6d] [8c]

kherd: checks
Our_Hero: bets $5
foxplayer: raises $5 to $10
//it is likely fox just has 7’s here
kherd: calls $10
Our_Hero: calls $5

*** 5th STREET ***

Dealt to Our_Hero [9s 9c 5c 3h] [8d]
Dealt to foxplayer [7s 4d] [Kh]
Dealt to kherd [6d 8c] [5h]

foxplayer: bets $10
kherd: calls $10
Our_Hero: calls $10

*** 6th STREET ***

Dealt to Our_Hero [9s 9c 5c 3h 8d] [9h]
Dealt to foxplayer [7s 4d Kh] [Qs]
Dealt to kherd [6d 8c 5h] [Jc]

foxplayer: bets $10
kherd: raises $10 to $20
Our_Hero: raises $10 to $30
// Someone is doing a happy dance and humming the theme from Jaws.
foxplayer: calls $9.50 and is all-in
kherd: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
Our_Hero: calls $10
// With kherd’s str8 cards pretty dead, his most probable hand is a set. While it could be JJJ, it’s much more likely to be slow-played 666 or 888. ( It is likely he would have put a raise in with pocket JJ earlier in the hand. )


*** RIVER ***

Dealt to Our_Hero [9s 9c 5c 3h 8d 9h] [3c]

kherd: bets $10
Our_Hero: raises $10 to $20
kherd: raises $10 to $30
Our_Hero: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
kherd: calls $10


*** SHOW DOWN ***

Our_Hero: shows [9s 9c 5c 3h 8d 9h 3c] (a full house, Nines full of Threes)
kherd: mucks hand
Our_Hero collected $121 from side pot
foxplayer: mucks hand
foxplayer leaves the table
// Man. I would to after being such a goof. Phew.
Our_Hero collected $136.50 from main pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $260.50 Main pot $136.50. Side pot $121. | Rake $3

Seat 1: Our_Hero showed [9s 9c 5c 3h 8d 9h 3c] and won ($257.50) with a full house, Nines full of Threes
Seat 2: tyrone folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Flippin Aces folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Romanichine folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: foxplayer mucked [As 7c 7s 4d Kh Qs 2h] - a pair of Sevens
Seat 6: kherd mucked [6c 6h 6d 8c 5h Jc Jd] - a full house, Sixes full of Jacks
Seat 7: dockseven folded on the 3rd Street
Seat 8: orcslayer folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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kling
Old 08-18-2004, 11:42 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttanaka
Most people are idiots, that's why. Sorry, I'm being blunt but honest.

Let's start with 100 typical fish - point them to this website, throw a book at them.

Will they read the website or the book? Maybe. (50%)
(down to 50 fish)

Will they comprehend what they've read? Possibly. (Another 50%)
(down to 25 fish)

Will they actually practice the things they've studied? Unlikely. (Another 20%)
(down to 5 fish)

Will they correctly execute the things they've practiced and studied? Probably not.
(down to 1 lone fishy)

And each day there's 100 new fish entering the pond. So, that's why there are so many poor players out there.

Now some of us, are actually willing to put in what it takes to become succesful, but like others have posted, that is NOT the majority.

The majority is driving their pickup truck through the McDonald's drive-thru hurrying to get home to catch the latest episode of Cops or Springer, and play a couple of online poker hands through their 2400 baud modem during the commercials.

C'mon, who can't beat that game?
Excellent post.

Just wondering, do you have any books that you could recommend?
aka wildwest15
They all know me as a small timer, but that's about to change.
 
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Xianti
Old 08-19-2004, 12:09 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwest15
Just wondering, do you have any books that you could recommend?
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-books.html
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johnnyawe
Old 08-19-2004, 05:41 AM     Post subject: Re: why are there bad players? #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
anyways, the prblem i can't seem to understand is why are there so many bad players out there? this website is one of many websites with strategies that allows a player to win. i can't believe that there can be so many ignorant poker players.
I've wondered this too. I figure there are two types of bad players:

1) Those that know they aren't all that good, but just aren't willing or able to take the time needed to learn how to play right. These people don't mind losing money and just enjoy playing poker for fun.

2) Those that honestly don't realize how bad they are, and don't even know that there is such thing as poker theory or strategy. I think these types don't last long. They either give it up, or realize that they need to become a student of the game.
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Krapp
Old 08-19-2004, 05:46 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Why are there "bad" players at poker?
(1) People like gambling. You dont have to be good to like gambling
(2) Gambling is addictive. You dont have to be good to be addicted.
(3) Success at poker not only requires playing. Playing well requires dilegence, patience, calmness, etc. Traits that some folks dont have.
(4) Some ppl play poker not b/c their good but b/c they are entertained.
(5) Poker is combative. Even if your bad youll win some battles and be fullfilled.
(6) Poker requires studies to bo good. Some ppl wont study
(7) Playing poker doesnt require steep investment or knowledge to play. This allows lots of folks to play but probably play badly
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johnnyawe
Old 08-19-2004, 05:52 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttanaka
The majority is driving their pickup truck through the McDonald's drive-thru hurrying to get home to catch the latest episode of Cops or Springer, and play a couple of online poker hands through their 2400 baud modem during the commercials.


Yeah, just read tanaka's whole post. He's right on the money.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 08-19-2004, 06:35 AM #13 (permalink)  
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got a couple of my questions. thanks for helpin me out. very friendly forum here

anyways, what are the obvious signs that i'm playing against bad players?

also, i think it would probably be a bad idea to play at penny tables because those games are probably very loose and most strategies wouldn't work very well. yes no?
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Fnord
Old 08-19-2004, 06:52 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
anyways, what are the obvious signs that i'm playing against bad players?
Regular 4 and 5 way pots.

Most players play too many pots, play them passivly and take their hands too far (call too much.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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thelipkin
Old 08-19-2004, 11:17 AM #15 (permalink)  
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There are simply some players who are too arrogant to be good. The type who watch WSOP and learn how to go all-in and will dominate his group of friends that he teaches how to play, goes online and gets killed. Then he bitches and bitches about not catching any cards.
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fishstick
Old 08-19-2004, 04:59 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
also, i think it would probably be a bad idea to play at penny tables because those games are probably very loose and most strategies wouldn't work very well. yes no?
the penny games over on poker stars (surprisingly) have "real" poker play.

it's not a bad training area.
i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
 
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johnnytc
Old 08-21-2008, 02:45 AM #17 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krapp
Why are there "bad" players at poker?
(1) People like gambling. You dont have to be good to like gambling
(2) Gambling is addictive. You dont have to be good to be addicted.
(3) Success at poker not only requires playing. Playing well requires dilegence, patience, calmness, etc. Traits that some folks dont have.
(4) Some ppl play poker not b/c their good but b/c they are entertained.
(5) Poker is combative. Even if your bad youll win some battles and be fullfilled.
(6) Poker requires studies to bo good. Some ppl wont study
(7) Playing poker doesnt require steep investment or knowledge to play. This allows lots of folks to play but probably play badly
wait whaaat? that makes no sense!

what do you mean by number 1 and 5???? care to elaborate??
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Deuce Blue
Old 08-21-2008, 04:25 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnytc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krapp
Why are there "bad" players at poker?
(1) People like gambling. You dont have to be good to like gambling
(2) Gambling is addictive. You dont have to be good to be addicted.
(3) Success at poker not only requires playing. Playing well requires dilegence, patience, calmness, etc. Traits that some folks dont have.
(4) Some ppl play poker not b/c their good but b/c they are entertained.
(5) Poker is combative. Even if your bad youll win some battles and be fullfilled.
(6) Poker requires studies to bo good. Some ppl wont study
(7) Playing poker doesnt require steep investment or knowledge to play. This allows lots of folks to play but probably play badly
wait whaaat? that makes no sense!

what do you mean by number 1 and 5???? care to elaborate??
Not my post but what the hell is confusing in those statements??

You see people dropping $200 a day into the slots at casino's or lose their ass playing blackjack. Go back there 2 days later and they are at it again. Thats point #1.

Point #5. Even an idiot player can get pocket Aces and go AI and win a big pot. Makes them feel great.

Doooooo youuuuu neeeeeeed usssss toooo speeeeeak sloooower.
You are an FTR station-pwn'ing badass motherf**ker. You have no pansyass, girly-girl, crybaby fears. Pwn the f**king stations like you know you ought to. And win some damn money, dammit.
 
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:37 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:13 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:49 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin.


Most people, even if they're not stupid, don't understand poperbility. I once had a conversation with another student... I don't recall what she studied, but she was taking a course in elementary probability at the time. She was convinced that it would be a vital tactic to wait at a roulette table until a color has come up 4 or five times in a row, and then bet on the opposite color. After about 30 minutes I was ready to kill her with an axe and set myself on fire.

A friend of mine from my home game is still convinced that a 4:1 probability is the same as 1:1, because "both can happen".
We actually set up a bet where I got AK and he got 72 (he chickened out on the AA vs AK), and we ran it 10 times for 1€ each. He won 6 of them... so... back to square 1.
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:34 PM #22 (permalink)  
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only ten times?.....A/K is only 65% vs any other one opponent.
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