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why not to slow play aces preflop. duh

  
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 07-09-2006, 05:55 AM     Post subject: why not to slow play aces preflop. duh #1 (permalink)  
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An age old lesson learned for UTG.....

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($36.08)
MP2 ($75.73)
MP3 ($42.60)
CO ($11)
Hero ($87.05)
SB ($104.19)
BB ($25.50)
UTG ($81.25)
UTG+1 ($49.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, UTG calls $2, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($6.25) 6, J, 9 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2, UTG raises to $6, Hero raises to $25, Hero calls $53.75.

Turn: ($91) 5 (2 players)

River: ($91) Q (2 players)

Final Pot: $91

Hmm, converter didnt work exactly but that's fine I'll just type it manually.
UTG shows: A A

SSSSSSSucka!
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Lukie
Old 07-09-2006, 02:08 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Yeah if that idiot would have just raised preflop, you would have folded and none of that would have ever happened!
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flomo
Old 07-09-2006, 03:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Yeah if that idiot would have just raised preflop, you would have folded and none of that would have ever happened!
you are starting to get funny again
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jackvance
Old 07-09-2006, 03:46 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 This is NOT a good example of that age old lesson..
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 07-10-2006, 03:52 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Limp/call = bad
UTG a limp might be ok if the table's been aggressive, as long as you reraise when the late position person raises your limp. any yes, i would have folded if he reraised me to anything more than 10 preflop.
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bantam222
Old 07-10-2006, 08:04 PM #6 (permalink)  
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but this isn't that good of an example...you would have called a raise with JJ anyway. It actually worked, as going to the flop, you had no idea he was so strong.


The reason limped AA is bad is when the flop comes 4 6 J and you get all your money in only to see the BB flip over 4 6...a raise PF takes care of that.
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Greedo017
Old 07-10-2006, 09:06 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 i think this is a good example.

***** Hand History for Game 4699142474 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 10, 16:40:46 ET 2006
Table Table 106814 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 5: Wahoo2006 ( $170.04 )
Seat 6: xhouseofpain ( $108.55 )
Seat 2: suuntaye ( $68.07 )
Seat 4: mwp917 ( $114.45 )
Seat 3: bandidaum ( $120.20 )
xhouseofpain posts small blind [$0.50].
suuntaye posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Wahoo2006 [ 2s 2c ]
bandidaum folds.
mwp917 raises [$4].
Wahoo2006 calls [$4].
xhouseofpain folds.
suuntaye calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, 8c, 2d ]
suuntaye bets [$20.02].
mwp917 folds.
Wahoo2006 raises [$80.04].
suuntaye is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
Wahoo2006 shows [ 2s, 2c ] a full house, Twos full of queens.
suuntaye doesn't show [ Kh, Ks ] two pairs, kings and queens.
Wahoo2006 wins $15.97 from side pot #1 with a full house, Twos full of queens.
Wahoo2006 wins $138.64 from the main pot with a full house, Twos full of queens.
i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
 
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magneticskull
Old 07-10-2006, 09:28 PM     Post subject: Re: why not to slow play aces preflop. duh #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
... UTG shows: A A

SSSSSSSucka!
And if it had been A...?
There is no such thing as free checking...
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 07-10-2006, 11:36 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
i think this is a good example.

***** Hand History for Game 4699142474 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 10, 16:40:46 ET 2006
Table Table 106814 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 5: Wahoo2006 ( $170.04 )
Seat 6: xhouseofpain ( $108.55 )
Seat 2: suuntaye ( $68.07 )
Seat 4: mwp917 ( $114.45 )
Seat 3: bandidaum ( $120.20 )
xhouseofpain posts small blind [$0.50].
suuntaye posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Wahoo2006 [ 2s 2c ]
bandidaum folds.
mwp917 raises [$4].
Wahoo2006 calls [$4].
xhouseofpain folds.
suuntaye calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, 8c, 2d ]
suuntaye bets [$20.02].
mwp917 folds.
Wahoo2006 raises [$80.04].
suuntaye is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
Wahoo2006 shows [ 2s, 2c ] a full house, Twos full of queens.
suuntaye doesn't show [ Kh, Ks ] two pairs, kings and queens.
Wahoo2006 wins $15.97 from side pot #1 with a full house, Twos full of queens.
Wahoo2006 wins $138.64 from the main pot with a full house, Twos full of queens.
Tru dat. Hmm, it is a much better example. I mainly wanted to post mine cuz i was still salivating over the pot. See I play sngs and dont ususally win big $ (well, at least relative to me) in a single hand.
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FlyingSaucy
Old 07-10-2006, 11:37 PM     Post subject: Re: why not to slow play aces preflop. duh #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magneticskull
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
... UTG shows: A A

SSSSSSSucka!
And if it had been A...?
Then I lose on a suck out.
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geoffm33
Old 07-11-2006, 04:39 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I wouldn't consider that a suckout. If he had Ac then he has on overpair to the board and 4 to the nuts when the money went in. Yeah he's behind, but with 11 outs.
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The Professor
Old 07-11-2006, 05:00 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Everything went in on the flop...has to runner runner the nut flush. Is that not a suckout? Maybe I missed something...
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geoffm33
Old 07-11-2006, 05:19 PM #13 (permalink)  
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No, you aren't missing anything, intuitively I just don't think he is that far behind to consider it a suckout, but that's just my opinion. Someone can run the numbers to see how far behind he is and prove me wrong. How far behind does someone need to be to consitute a suckout? Or does the runner/runner make it a suckout regardless?
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magneticskull
Old 07-11-2006, 08:38 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Flying, did you push or did opp? It's hard to tell from the mangled HH...
What would your move have been without the set?
ie: flop = 6d 3c 9c
There is no such thing as free checking...
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 07-12-2006, 05:24 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magneticskull
Flying, did you push or did opp? It's hard to tell from the mangled HH...
No, I did a standard cbet on the flop, in fact so that it looked like a standard cbet. He raised, and I'm thinking he's either on a bluff because be beleives I'm just on a stupid cbet (as I was hoping), or he's got a lower set. Only one way to find out and try to extract more $$. So I reraise him 4x his reraise, then he goes over the top for ~1x pot more and I obviously call, as I've got the nuts at that point. I was shocked to not see 66 or 99 flipped over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magneticskull
What would your move have been without the set?
ie: flop = 6d 3c 9c
I probably would have gotten burned. He checks the flop, I bet it probably about the same $2-3 bet. He raises me to 6-8, then I've got to start worrying about his trips protecting from the draws, or push over the top of him. If I push I'm probably in trouble because he's probably not laying down AA. The 6-8 raise puts me in a tough spot but would probably not lay down to the 6-8 raise on that board, not against a limp/call preflop because I should be pretty confident im not up against QQ-AA. The limp/call preflop blows my mind with KK-AA. The whole reason for limping in EP with high pockets is to get a LP raiser to think you are on a low pp and bullying when you reraise.
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FlyingSaucy
Old 07-12-2006, 05:31 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffm33
No, you aren't missing anything, intuitively I just don't think he is that far behind to consider it a suckout, but that's just my opinion. Someone can run the numbers to see how far behind he is and prove me wrong. How far behind does someone need to be to consitute a suckout? Or does the runner/runner make it a suckout regardless?
Yea the issue is "suckout" definition. I guess it would be hard for me to lay down an overpair regardless of the flop, but esp if it is suited and i've got the 4th. But with only 3 to a flush on the flop, I think the flush would be considered a suck out against that kind of crazy 100x BB all in action. Seems like the raise reraise rereraise rerereraise action indicates there's no drawing attempts going on. We're both just getting the $ in for our current hand, not hoping for any particular turn/river cards.
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Halv
Old 07-12-2006, 11:11 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffm33
How far behind does someone need to be to consitute a suckout?
I'm gonna paraphrase Sklansky on you: If you both could see each others cards and he makes a mistake, then it's a suckout. I don't care if it's a 0.000001% suckout, it's still a suckout.

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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-12-2006, 01:17 PM     Post subject: Re: why not to slow play aces preflop. duh #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
Quote:
Originally Posted by magneticskull
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
... UTG shows: A A

SSSSSSSucka!
And if it had been A...?
Then I lose on a suck out.
You mean get BWNED on a suckout. SSSSSSSSSSSSSucka!

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Precisely.
 
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jackvance
Old 07-12-2006, 01:26 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvSame
0.000001% suckout
Hm, what is that? 72o beating AA and winning the lottery at the same time?..
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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pokerroomace
Old 07-12-2006, 10:51 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
Limp/call = bad
UTG a limp might be ok if the table's been aggressive, as long as you reraise when the late position person raises your limp. any yes, i would have folded if he reraised me to anything more than 10 preflop.
why would he want you to fold? he's miles ahead. if i was in that situation i would probably reraise preflop with my AA. but i would only reraise a small amount. definitely less than $10 so that i would keep you in the hand.

also, i never slow play aces myself. but it can be profitable and if you're playing with the same people the whole time you need to mix up your play a bit. there are no set of rules that say that every time you are dealt aces, you always have to raise exactly 3.5xBB and fold when you have T3o. Because then people will read you easily.

there are no set of rules in poker. you need to mix up your play. (this isn't advice for low stakes online play though)
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spoonitnow
Old 07-12-2006, 11:01 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffm33
No, you aren't missing anything, intuitively I just don't think he is that far behind to consider it a suckout, but that's just my opinion. Someone can run the numbers to see how far behind he is and prove me wrong. How far behind does someone need to be to consitute a suckout? Or does the runner/runner make it a suckout regardless?
If he has the Ac, then we're ahead about 88/12.

Without the runner-runner flush draw involved, we're ahead about 91.5/8.5.

I don't see how anyone's intuition can feel than an overpair vs a set AI on the flop is close by any means unless the flop is suited and the overpair has a card of that suit. (Which, btw, we're head 66/34 on that one.)
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Halv
Old 07-12-2006, 11:55 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerroomace
Why would he want you to fold? he's miles ahead. if i was in that situation i would probably reraise preflop with my AA. but i would only reraise a small amount. definitely less than $10 so that i would keep you in the hand.
You (as an unknown) make the limp-raise on me, I put you on AA/KK. You shouldn't want to play your AA to a flop in this situation as you might just as well turn your cards face up. I'll only put more chips in post-flop if I can beat AA, thus you want to end the hand preflop.

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geoffm33
Old 07-13-2006, 12:24 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffm33
No, you aren't missing anything, intuitively I just don't think he is that far behind to consider it a suckout, but that's just my opinion. Someone can run the numbers to see how far behind he is and prove me wrong. How far behind does someone need to be to consitute a suckout? Or does the runner/runner make it a suckout regardless?
If he has the Ac, then we're ahead about 88/12.

Without the runner-runner flush draw involved, we're ahead about 91.5/8.5.

I don't see how anyone's intuition can feel than an overpair vs a set AI on the flop is close by any means unless the flop is suited and the overpair has a card of that suit. (Which, btw, we're head 66/34 on that one.)
If those #'s are correct, then my intuition is horrible!!
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AceRagSuited
Old 07-13-2006, 10:42 AM     Post subject: Re: why not to slow play aces preflop. duh #24 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by magneticskull
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
... UTG shows: A A

SSSSSSSucka!
And if it had been A...?
It would've been a HUGE suckout because all the money went in on the flop.
"Here's a guy puts all his money in, and doesn't even know what he has. 9 he's yellin 9, he's already got the stone nuts with the redraw. He's got the guy drawing dead, and he's like 9 9, oh wait I already made the nuts."
 
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AceRagSuited
Old 07-13-2006, 11:04 AM #25 (permalink)  

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My definition of a suckout is any time someone calls a huge bet on the come for -EV getting the money in worse than a 3:1 dog and winning. Usually this means < 4-5 outs on the flop or < 8 outs on the turn.

Technically I would consider a naked flush draw with no overs and no pairs calling a 3/4 or full pot bet on the turn and getting there on the river a suckout.

1 and 2 outters on the flop are bad, on the turn they're worse. Any situation involving runner runner, especially running inside straight cards.

Like I said though, I consider it a bad beat anytime someone gets their money in worse than 70/30 without odds and gets there.
"Here's a guy puts all his money in, and doesn't even know what he has. 9 he's yellin 9, he's already got the stone nuts with the redraw. He's got the guy drawing dead, and he's like 9 9, oh wait I already made the nuts."
 
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