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This is why lagg doesn't work at low limits (lc).

  
 
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Renton
Old 09-03-2006, 07:59 AM     Post subject: This is why lagg doesn't work at low limits (lc). #1 (permalink)  
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 ***** Hand History for Game 5090964373 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, September 03, 03:53:37 ET 2006
Table Table 106840 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: SassySallie ( $241.20 )
Seat 4: LuckayLuck ( $453.65 )
Seat 3: Beelzeboz0 ( $295.95 )
Seat 5: McMurphy10 ( $125.60 )
Seat 6: VILLAIN_ ( $151.85 )
Seat 1: surfinluke ( $95.50 )
Beelzeboz0 posts small blind [$0.50].
LuckayLuck posts big blind [$1].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Beelzeboz0 [ 2s 3h ]

McMurphy10 has left the table.
VILLAIN_ folds.
surfinluke folds.
SassySallie raises [$4].
Beelzeboz0 raises [$12.50].
LuckayLuck folds.
SassySallie calls [$9].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 9d, 9c ]

Beelzeboz0 bets [$19].
igotacehigh has joined the table.
SassySallie raises [$50].
Beelzeboz0 is all-In.
SassySallie is all-In.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]

** Dealing River ** [ Th ]

SassySallie shows [ 5h, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and nines.
Beelzeboz0 shows [ 2s, 3h ] a pair of nines.

Beelzeboz0 wins $54.75 from side pot #1 with a pair of nines.
SassySallie wins $481.40 from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and nines.
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 09-03-2006, 08:16 AM #2 (permalink)  
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If you didn't rely on a HUD so much you might give more consideration to you image...
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
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ensign_lee
Old 09-03-2006, 08:29 AM #3 (permalink)  
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$100 NL isn't that low of a limit.

Was your table image THAT bad?

Get your own starcraft 2 signature at sc2sig.com
 
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 09-03-2006, 09:28 AM #4 (permalink)  
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You really think you have fe there after playing this hand? Pretty bad push IMO.

***** Hand History for Game 5090464208 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, September 03, 01:50:17 ET 2006
Table Table 106840 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: SassySallie ( $100.40 )
Seat 4: LuckayLuck ( $269.40 )
Seat 5: macdee99 ( $86 )
Seat 6: ScoopityScoop ( $100 )
Seat 1: mFjAp ( $112.90 )
Seat 3: Beelzeboz0 ( $156.20 )
mFjAp posts small blind [$0.50].
SassySallie posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Beelzeboz0 raises [$4].
LuckayLuck folds.
macdee99 folds.
ScoopityScoop folds.
mFjAp folds.
SassySallie calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, As, 9s ]
SassySallie bets [$8].
Beelzeboz0 raises [$28].
SassySallie raises [$80].
Beelzeboz0 raises [$120].
SassySallie is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
Beelzeboz0 shows [ Ah, Ad ] three of a kind, aces.
SassySallie doesn't show [ 7h, 9c ] two pairs, nines and sevens.
Beelzeboz0 wins $51.60 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, aces.
Beelzeboz0 wins $198.30 from the main pot with three of a kind, aces.

Quote:
Was your table image THAT bad?
he was playing a little over 60%VPIP and at 36%pfr and showing all kinds of bluffs.
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Cocco_Bill
Old 09-03-2006, 09:45 AM #5 (permalink)  
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that type of lag play does not work at any limits. Its called spewing chips.
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lolzzz_321
Old 09-03-2006, 02:21 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Bill is spittin punchlines. Have you seen Wild 'n Out?
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Miffed22001
Old 09-03-2006, 03:06 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
If you didn't rely on a HUD so much you might give more consideration to you image...
this is my favourite post ever.
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mrhappy333
Old 09-03-2006, 03:06 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I thought you want some kind of a hand before you push?
2,3 off suit doesn't seem to fit??
3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
 
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Dislexsik
Old 09-03-2006, 03:47 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Triptan3s
Bill is spittin punchlines. Have you seen Wild 'n Out?
wtf is hitting that rabbit?
 
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lolzzz_321
Old 09-03-2006, 04:03 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I hope a hollow point.
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Renton
Old 09-03-2006, 05:29 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
If you didn't rely on a HUD so much you might give more consideration to you image...

My image sucked, but every time I get all in with deep stacks I had a great hand.

And obviously since I was one tabling, I really didn't look at hud stats.
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Renton
Old 09-03-2006, 05:32 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
You really think you have fe there after playing this hand? Pretty bad push IMO.
I was relying on that hand to make him fold. In her mind (if she weren't a horrible player) she should be thinking "hmm, last time we got all in with deep stacks, he had a set of aces."
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andy-akb
Old 09-03-2006, 06:44 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
You really think you have fe there after playing this hand? Pretty bad push IMO.
I was relying on that hand to make him fold. In her mind (if she weren't a horrible player) she should be thinking "hmm, last time we got all in with deep stacks, he had a set of aces."
If you had played with her for a little bit wouldnt you have realized she was a horrible player who wouldnt lay down to a play like this unless she had total air?
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Renton
Old 09-03-2006, 06:47 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
You really think you have fe there after playing this hand? Pretty bad push IMO.
I was relying on that hand to make him fold. In her mind (if she weren't a horrible player) she should be thinking "hmm, last time we got all in with deep stacks, he had a set of aces."
If you had played with her for a little bit wouldnt you have realized she was a horrible player who wouldnt lay down to a play like this unless she had total air?
i pushed her off lots of hands
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Miffed22001
Old 09-03-2006, 07:30 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 the reason why the AA hand gets paid off is because you play 60/30 or watnot. You can push people off the biggest bank flop ever J99 unless you acually have it. Thats why your style is supposed to work, because when you have it you get people to overplay.
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The Izebox
Old 09-03-2006, 10:26 PM #16 (permalink)  
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yeah man if you saw here donk off a stack to you earlier with mid pair no kicker its prob not a good time to move in with no outs. I rarely make moves on bad players when they have shown a tendancy to call down garbage, theres just no reason too. The $$$ is on the table, just wait for your hand and push it. LAG def doesnt work against donks, but i play pretty loose against the regulars at full tilt and they cant touch me.

those donks tho...
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 09-05-2006, 05:13 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
i pushed her off lots of hands
Then why give it back with 23o? Renton I don't question your ability (in fact I envy your style) but at the same time 23o esp against a donk who calls off with J5o(it wasn't even like J9o) I'd think 23o with little outs is bad EV longterm.....
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Genitruc
Old 09-05-2006, 07:22 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 Renton do you often experiment with different styles at low limits before implementing them at higher ones? wtf are you playing nl100 for? I've gotta assume you're just trying shit out...
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Renton
Old 09-05-2006, 04:09 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Renton do you often experiment with different styles at low limits before implementing them at higher ones? wtf are you playing nl100 for? I've gotta assume you're just trying shit out...
just blowing off steam
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BankItDrew
Old 09-05-2006, 04:17 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Playing lagg? Or playing drunk?


Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!

Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?

Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
 
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gabe
Old 09-05-2006, 05:02 PM #21 (permalink)  
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"This is why lagg doesn't work at low limits (lc)."

a good LAG can beat any limits. LAGs are good handreaders, and good hand reading means good at reading the opponent. even if you know the villian had J5s, you have to know if hes the type to fold it or not. like someone said, this isn't good LAG play, this is spew mostly.
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Renton
Old 09-05-2006, 05:11 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
"This is why lagg doesn't work at low limits (lc)."

a good LAG can beat any limits. LAGs are good handreaders, and good hand reading means good at reading the opponent. even if you know the villian had J5s, you have to know if hes the type to fold it or not. like someone said, this isn't good LAG play, this is spew mostly.
I in no way advocate the play I made in this hand.

HOWEVER, isn't it safe to assume that, considering I just busted this person with the nuts the last time we got all in on the flop, that I'd have +EV fold equity in this spot?

Should I really anticipate ANYONE calling 200bbs with total garbage like this?
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benny999
Old 09-05-2006, 05:21 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
"This is why lagg doesn't work at low limits (lc)."

a good LAG can beat any limits. LAGs are good handreaders, and good hand reading means good at reading the opponent. even if you know the villian had J5s, you have to know if hes the type to fold it or not. like someone said, this isn't good LAG play, this is spew mostly.
I in no way advocate the play I made in this hand.

HOWEVER, isn't it safe to assume that, considering I just busted this person with the nuts the last time we got all in on the flop, that I'd have +EV fold equity in this spot?

Should I really anticipate ANYONE calling 200bbs with total garbage like this?
Not that I'm a great hand reader or anything, but I don't think this mega-call-station is making that adjustment, especially if you were bluffing so much before...no matter the pot size to a megastation.
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gabe
Old 09-05-2006, 05:27 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Should I really anticipate ANYONE calling 200bbs with total garbage like this?
dont see why not...

LAG play isn't always about making peopole fold. sure, you may be playing a wider range preflop, but in the end its all about building big pots with good hands and keeping the pot small with the not-so-good hands
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FlopTurnThenRivered
Old 09-12-2006, 08:03 AM #25 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Should I really anticipate ANYONE calling 200bbs with total garbage like this?
dont see why not...

LAG play isn't always about making peopole fold. sure, you may be playing a wider range preflop, but in the end its all about building big pots with good hands and keeping the pot small with the not-so-good hands
Great Post. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, because I'm interested in trying a LAG style. Granted that I only play 10NL, I beleive playing with a style that "builds big pots with good hands and keep[s] the pot small with the not-so-good hands", it can be assumed that a LAG style could beat any limit.

One thing I'm interested in is how to play flops with a LAG style, when do you c-bet? When do you just check and let it go? To my knowledge, a LAG style of play is quite similar to a TAG style of play when in position, but quite a bit looser out of position. Am I correct in assuming that?

With a LAG style, are we nearly always betting our draws? Betting middle pairs?

I suppose a lot of these questions come down to hand reading and knowing the opponent. Which begs me to ask the question, with a LAG style is having and *knowing how to use* pokertracker more important than with a TAG style of game?

Questions, Questions..
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kordothebear
Old 09-12-2006, 08:48 AM #26 (permalink)  
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did u ever consider that maybe he was on just as much tilt as you?
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mcatdog
Old 09-12-2006, 09:52 AM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlopTurnThenRivered
With a LAG style, are we nearly always betting our draws? Betting middle pairs?
No! Don't fall into the trap of playing a certain way simply because you're trying to play a LAG style and you think that's how a LAG "should" play. Being a good LAG doesn't mean having standard plays. You think about the situation you're in and you bet those hands if you think it's +EV, otherwise don't.
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FlopTurnThenRivered
Old 09-12-2006, 07:20 PM #28 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlopTurnThenRivered
With a LAG style, are we nearly always betting our draws? Betting middle pairs?
No! Don't fall into the trap of playing a certain way simply because you're trying to play a LAG style and you think that's how a LAG "should" play. Being a good LAG doesn't mean having standard plays. You think about the situation you're in and you bet those hands if you think it's +EV, otherwise don't.
Of course it's always situational, so let's create a situation.

We raise on the button with 89s suited, the sb calls and the big blind folds. The flop comes Ad 9c Qc. The Small blind checks to us, I would think a good time to c-bet right here. So we bet out 3/4th the pot and the villian calls. The turn comes a blank, and the sb again checks to us.

It's these situations that kill me, without any good read on the villian, but assuming he's not a complete calling station and can lay down middle pairs etc, should we fire out another - larger - bullet here? Or check behind possibly giving a free card to the flush, or even a higher pair that's going to beat our hand, also giving the villian FE if he decides to fire at virtually any river card.

It's my understanding that again we should fire at this, maybe a 2/3 the pot bet, putting the villian to some sort of decision. But there's problems I see with this as well, because say he calls behind again, we're playing scared on the river and have a tough decision to make, almost no matter what the villian does. If he checks to us, I like a check behind, hoping he missed his draw. If he bets out, did he miss his draw? Or has he been sitting on a strong hand the whole time, knowing we'll bluff at the pot with a weak hand.

How would you (you being anyone reading this) play this hand??
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mcatdog
Old 09-12-2006, 08:57 PM #29 (permalink)  
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I like my second barrels to be a real hand at least 70% of the time so I'd usually check behind there, but I'd bet again about 10% of the time to mix it up. You should still have something most of the time when the pot gets really big.
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FlopTurnThenRivered
Old 09-13-2006, 09:45 AM #30 (permalink)  

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Interesting. See this is where I have problems with pot sizes, which I beleive cant at times be one of my biggest leaks. I'm quite willing to second barrel a hand like this because more often than not I tend to put them on a draw rather than a made hand, which while in certain cases ends the hand quickly in my favour but often enough costs me chips, sometimes so much so that I wonder if it's -EV.
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Pelion
Old 09-13-2006, 10:01 AM #31 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton

isn't it safe to assume that, considering I just busted this person with the nuts the last time we got all in on the flop, that I'd have +EV fold equity in this spot?
No.

If anything the previous hand makes it more likely she has Q9 or something stupid like that.

Players like this are the reason TAG so effectivly destroys the very low limits. It doesnt matter how many times you fold and how many times your allin is top set / straight. Theyll still be in there with weak top pairs.

You look at that AA and think "I showed top set, thatll scare you next time".

I'd look at it and think "You showed utter crap, Im NEVER bluffing you EVER".

You beat these players by making hands and pushing them hard. Dont overthink it. This hand is a FPS spew imo.
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