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gobbledygeek
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06-19-2006, 07:25 PM
Post subject: Why give advice?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19
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Not sure if this is the proper forum, but anyhoo...
I'm a noob 2/4 limit player (-3.4BB/hour over 60 hours, yuck) reading poker message boards to try to help improve my game. Then it occurred to me, why would +ev players even give advice? Or would they give incorrect advice?
I mean, it seems to me there are only two ways to make money at the game of poker. One way is by not playing it at all but rather being the one profiting from those who do (i.e. being the one collecting the rakes, or being the one who writes & sells books about playing the game, etc.). The second way is by playing the game itself but only in games that contain many players worse than yourself. I mean, if you only played in games that contain players as good as you are then the only one that is going to win in the long run is the one collecting the rake, right? But by giving advice to noob players (like myself) aren't winning +ev players simply making their life more difficult by making good games harder to come by? So much so that it would actually make sense to give bad advice?
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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please don't discourage these guys from giving advice, i need all the help i can get with poker.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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MSG85
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Two Pair
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 48
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There is more to poker than just money. Most of us just play as a hobby and enjoy discussing the game we love with others who feel the same way.
It can be much more fun to play a thinkng opponent, even though it is rarely profitable.
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gobbledygeek
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flomo
please don't discourage these guys from giving advice, i need all the help i can get with poker.
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Ha, you and me both! I betcha my win rate is worse than yours!
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gobbledygeek
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MSG85
There is more to poker than just money. Most of us just play as a hobby and enjoy discussing the game we love with others who feel the same way.
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This makes sense to me.
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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Quote:
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Then it occurred to me, why would +ev players even give advice?
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1) We are not selfish jerks.
2) The best way to learn is to teach
3) When there are 50 million fish in the sea, you dont have a problem with teaching thoes that want to learn.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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There are hundreds of thousands of players playing in the poker rooms, what would helping the 4 or 5 hundred here that play 2NL and 5NL hurt a 100+NL player. And unless you have actually taught a sport or other activity ( I was a Karate instructor for 10 years and presently a personal trainer) it's hard to understand what teaching actually helps yourself with as far as following your own advice. If you study and teach, your learning as well. Most of these guys will have moved up long before we get to the level they are at now so they don't fear the students, they learn from them.
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jackvance
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06-19-2006, 09:13 PM
Post subject: Re: Why give advice?
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#8 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
But by giving advice to noob players (like myself) aren't winning +ev players simply making their life more difficult by making good games harder to come by? So much so that it would actually make sense to give bad advice?
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I think you just convinced me to stop giving advice. Not that I'm that good or anything, so no big loss probably.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Protect yourself. Do the opposite of any advice given here.
Site and screen name?
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Protect yourself. Do the opposite of any advice given here.
Site and screen name?
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LOL
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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1. As mentioned before, often the best way to learn is to teach. I have learned much by thinking through the questions of others and providing answers to the best of my ability.
2. The best of human nature is the desire to help others.
3. The worst of human nature is the desire to demonstrate superiority and control over others.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Anyone who really wanted to learn to play poker could do so quite easily with all the poker books out there on the market at the moment. The people I take money off at the people who wouldn't make the effort even if I handed them a book and pointed them to FTR. Even if they read it they wouldn't apply it. So knowing this, why not dispense a bit of advice and learn something myself on my journey through poker.
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Thee One
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 185
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
1. As mentioned before, often the best way to learn is to teach. I have learned much by thinking through the questions of others and providing answers to the best of my ability.
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ain't that the truth. I was so wrong in a thread last week that I had to independantly verify that I was wrong. I learned a bunch from that, so next time I speak on THAT particular subject I'll be right.
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Jiggus
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The thing about sites like this is that they are FORUMS; places where people of like minds can come and discuss what interests them.
I just got a new poker book a while ago, Phil Gordon's Green Book, and one little note in it states that the great players got great and stay great by discussing the game with other players, or words to that effect. That's what normal people do in all walks of life. Musicians talk about music and give tips and show off new techniques, cooks talk about recipes and ingredients, etc. Why is it so hard to believe that people here aren't genuine?
There are some full-on teacher types here, but mostly, people just talk about their own experiences and what has or hasn't worked for them.
I can tell you that FTR has changed my game around. I'm even on a new level of play from what was winning for my first 20,000 hands and I never would have changed my style were it not for some great tips from guys like Pelion and Irisheyes, to name but two. I have no one in my physical vicinity with whom to discuss poker, so this forum, and others like it, serve that purpose. FTR is probably the most comfortable one out there.
And one other thing, when I get away from this site and stop talking about poker, my game goes astray. It's important to participate and read, even if you don't have much at all to say.
By the way, the site where you're playing just be rigged if your KKQQQ lost to four queens. There is something amiss with that number of queens, mate.
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gobbledygeek
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jiggus
I just got a new poker book a while ago, Phil Gordon's Green Book, and one little note in it states that the great players got great and stay great by discussing the game with other players, or words to that effect. That's what normal people do in all walks of life. Musicians talk about music and give tips and show off new techniques, cooks talk about recipes and ingredients, etc. Why is it so hard to believe that people here aren't genuine?
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Good points, and as others have said, there can definitely be learning thru teaching too. And I totally understand that for most people this is a hobby that they've taken up and, just like any other hobby, they enjoy discussing it with others who are interested in it too.
But for some reason poker seems more adversarial than being a musician, cook, etc. or definitely any other hobby. The joy in most of these other things is in the learning, doing and participating, not being better than other people. But I think in playing poker, and maybe I'm wrong on this, most of the joy comes in winning (do you come away from a losing session very often saying to yourself what a wonderful time you've just had?). And I'm thinking the only way you can possibly win at this game over the long haul (and therefore have more fun?) is by constantly playing players that are worse than you (i.e. who are less informed).
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Jiggus
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jiggus
I just got a new poker book a while ago, Phil Gordon's Green Book, and one little note in it states that the great players got great and stay great by discussing the game with other players, or words to that effect. That's what normal people do in all walks of life. Musicians talk about music and give tips and show off new techniques, cooks talk about recipes and ingredients, etc. Why is it so hard to believe that people here aren't genuine?
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Good points, and as others have said, there can definitely be learning thru teaching too. And I totally understand that for most people this is a hobby that they've taken up and, just like any other hobby, they enjoy discussing it with others who are interested in it too.
But for some reason poker seems more adversarial than being a musician, cook, etc. or definitely any other hobby. The joy in most of these other things is in the learning, doing and participating, not being better than other people. But I think in playing poker, and maybe I'm wrong on this, most of the joy comes in winning (do you come away from a losing session very often saying to yourself what a wonderful time you've just had?). And I'm thinking the only way you can possibly win at this game over the long haul (and therefore have more fun?) is by constantly playing players that are worse than you (i.e. who are less informed). |
An interesting and thoughtful point. My take is that people on this site form a sort of clique. A clique of people who want to improve their game.
The so-called fish, or morons, or mullards, or whatever out there are the people who are not part of this clique. The clique that wants to learn the game well.
I can only say that my time here has been beneficial, and I suspect that most who take the time to participate on this site will also benefit.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure that there are a few bovine faeces slingers here, and people who think they're better than they are, but I reckon you see through them soon enough, or the earth comes to meet their asses soon enough.
But I thought that the original point was why would people help others in this game and on this site? It's 'cause we're all in the same boat, no? It's our hobby, clique, sport, our common interest.
I've know musicians and cooks who were fiercely egotistic, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't let you in on a few secrets if you showed the interest. I reckon it's the same here.
But in the end, you do want to play worse players than yourself. At least for now. I agree there.
But I'm blathering.
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