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Why do I play so badly!? Lets go back to basics.

  
 
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Fade
Old 01-10-2006, 12:50 AM     Post subject: Why do I play so badly!? Lets go back to basics. #1 (permalink)  

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HOW do I go about being a better poker player? I mean, WHERE DO I START?
I played mock games with no cash just to get the feel for it for about 5-6 months on my comp, as well home games (usually tournaments with 1st, 2nd and 3rd getting payed off) with $20 buy in each. I actually want to learn to play better poker so I suggest $10 tournment and play at least once a week but non of them had time and just wanted to play $20 a months.

With home games, I usually go home broke even when I'm playing my best. I'm not gonna blame it on bad beats or anything because I realise now that I'm just playing VERY badly. Most of my friends know me for being tight so most of the time against me, they always raise to 7-8 times when they have a reasonable hand, while against anyone else, 3-4 times. And because of that, I usually become the short stack of the table.

Throughout the game, I hardly recognized any tell. I did figure out that player 3 is usually very aggressive, the SB dances around abit and the rest are pretty loose.

IS THERE ANYWAY I CAN START BEING A BETTER PLAYER?
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Fade
Old 01-10-2006, 01:14 AM #2 (permalink)  

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Fade
oh and I read about half of the strategies here, I'm just having trouble applying them and I usually forget these strategies at the poker table.

I just realised, most of the games I play in are free, I just havnt had much of a chance to play lots of low cash games (even though I would love to). Most of my friends are either busy with work or study.

AND another thing, I find it quite hard to calculate the pot odds and stuff. The above are just VERY rough estimate of how much chips each player had. Most of the time, it feels like rapid action with them, so I wouldnt even have time to calculate how much chips they threw in or how much is in the pot and etc...
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outphase
Old 01-10-2006, 01:22 AM #3 (permalink)  
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focus on your game, do not allow yourself to play with your emotions. Also, do not "milk" your opponents as you tend to lose more hands than win them this way. If your opps have a label on you, change how you play to make them wonder. my friends all have me labeled as a Tag because that's what I advocate, but I also know how to play the player.

With the hand you posted, what was your action before 3rd pushed all in? There's no way 3rd can act before BB, so what was your plan of attack on that hand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
 
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Fade
Old 01-10-2006, 01:28 AM #4 (permalink)  

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Fade
and heres another thing. I realised that I MIXED UP all the positions after reading:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/start_basics.html

damn, I can't even remember what exactly happened. lets see.

LW(me): on BB (about 800 left) hole cards: Ad Qd
SF: UDG 1(about 1080 left)
RC: UDG2 (about 2400 left)
KH: MP with the button (about 400 left)
JG: MP1, out - no chips left
JX: SB (about 120 chips left)

I don't think I even raised that much preflop.
SB posts 25
BB posts 50
UDG1 calls (we're all newbie here, I didnt even realise all he did was a call)
UDG2 calls
MP folds
SB folds
BB raises 120 ... so thats 170 counting the BB
UDG1 calls
UDG2 calls

Flop: 8d 6c 4d

UDG1 checks
UDG2 goes ALL-IN
BB folds
UDG1 folds
UDG2 shows a pair 8.

I just realised ... I was suppose to start out the bet before UDG1 aye???
ahhhh!!! the positions are all mixed up, I just realised that most of the times, players were ACTING OUT OF TURNS!!!! If it was a real casino game, they would have been penalized or at least the dealer would have noticed and told everyone. But since it was a home game, nobody noticed.
I think that contributed ALOT to my poor play.

If I would have gone first, I would have opened up with a moderate bet, something like 100. Damn it.
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JonBoy
Old 01-10-2006, 02:00 AM #5 (permalink)  

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I am extremely new and typically full of crap.
with that said don't take me to seriously.
as said above considering you have a rep as very tight you could have used it to your advantage. had you shown aggression post flop before number 3 had a chance to act you would be more certain whether she had an all in bet or not. You still have the best possible kicker a queen and a flush draw. your on defence but not drawing dead nesessarilly.Remember, your freinds know your tight and number three called your raise which makes me think she had better than 5 7 preflop (or your not the one in need of advice she is). 9 10 is possible but still not likely (I wouldn't call a raise preflop against a tight player on 9 10 ) if you checked it alerted her that you were still drawing, she knew nobody in had the straight by your reactions and its gaps, and it gave her the oportunity to push you around. i think she had trips. raising early could have bought you the turn card and maybe the river. if you did raise and she raised you, then think you made the right play mucking. I'm reading skalansky and he says you should play very tight preflop, and play agressive post flop to protect your hand



wouldn't you have been first to act post flop in the BB ?
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Rondavu
Old 01-10-2006, 01:30 PM     Post subject: Re: Why do I play so badly!? Lets go back to basics. #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
HOW do I go about being a better poker player? I mean, WHERE DO I START?

IS THERE ANYWAY I CAN START BEING A BETTER PLAYER?
You become a better player by....

1) Reading Poker Books
2) Reading FTR
3) Asking good players questions
4) Playing hundreds of thousands of hands
5) Recognizing leaks and fixing them
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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TLR
Old 01-10-2006, 02:13 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Regarding your home game, please post the Sng structure so you can get some sensible advice.

My feeling from your post is that you play very basic poker - waiting for good hands and not bluffing, and you play vs players who know how to take advantage of it.

Tight image means that your bets are respected, that is good.

Early on play very tight, and play any hand you play agressively. Raise any hand you decide to play preflop, c-bet a lot.
Once you are down to 4-5 players raise the level of aggression, bluff at pots, steal blinds, and try to do it without giving any visible tells.


 
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Fade
Old 01-10-2006, 02:51 PM #8 (permalink)  

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Fade
^^^ the problem was everyone was acing out of turn, usually leaving me at a position disadvantage. that wasn' really a valid game.

Or am I just kidding myself because of my ego!?
Seriously though I would have definately pushed that hand if given the chance.

*sigh* the next time I hold a home game, I'm gonna be more organized. I still ended in the money today but still, I feel ashamed that I didn't realise people were acting out of turns.
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TLR
Old 01-10-2006, 02:59 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
the problem was everyone was acing out of turn, usually leaving me at a position disadvantage. that wasn' really a valid game
If people act out of turn it gives you a position advantage. Acting out of turn means they make their move before they are supposed too, which gives you more information before you act.

However you should make an attempt to keep the order of action, otherwise the game is much harder to manage and opens up lots of arguement (player A raises, player B called out of turn, and player C who is supposed to act after A reraised, now is B required to call the reraise, can he retake his call to player A, can he fold and leave this money in the pot ?)
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Pyroxene
Old 01-10-2006, 03:07 PM     Post subject: Re: Why do I play so badly!? Lets go back to basics. #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
HOW do I go about being a better poker player? I mean, WHERE DO I START?
I played mock games with no cash just to get the feel for it for about 5-6 months on my comp, as well home games (usually tournaments with 1st, 2nd and 3rd getting payed off) with $20 buy in each. I actually want to learn to play better poker so I suggest $10 tournment and play at least once a week but non of them had time and just wanted to play $20 a months.

With home games, I usually go home broke even when I'm playing my best. I'm not gonna blame it on bad beats or anything because I realise now that I'm just playing VERY badly. Most of my friends know me for being tight so most of the time against me, they always raise to 7-8 times when they have a reasonable hand, while against anyone else, 3-4 times. And because of that, I usually become the short stack of the table.

Just to show how badly I'm playing ... this is one of the hands that I remember the most.
We were playing short handed with 6 people. 1st person just got out.
One hand I remember today that I think screwed me up the most was when theres just about 5 people on the table.
I was the big blind with blinds at 25/50
1st folds (about 120 chips left)
2nd folds (about 400 left)
3rd calls ( about 2400 left)
SB calls (about 1080 left)
BB (me) with Ad Qd (about 800 left) raise to 200
3rd calls
SB calls
flop: 8d 6c 4d
3rd goes all in
SB folds
BB folds

See because everyone know me as a tight player, they often make big moves against me. I folded that round. 3rd had pair 8.

Throughout the game, I hardly recognized any tell. I did figure out that player 3 is usually very aggressive, the SB dances around abit and the rest are pretty loose.

IS THERE ANYWAY I CAN START BEING A BETTER PLAYER?
You say that your friends realize you are a tight player. With that said,

You raised 3xBB after 2 limpers. What would you have done with AA,KK,QQ? I am wondering because UTG+2, realizing you are tight, called a bet that represents 1/4 of your stack preflop when he had 88. That is a losing play if you have AA, KK, QQ. Even if he folds every time post flop that he is behind and destacks you every other time, it is still a losing play. This makes me wonder if your AQ raise is very different from your AA/KK/QQ raise here; different enough that he knew you did not have AA/KK/QQ.

You mentioned that UTG+2 is aggressive, yet he limped. Would he limp with AA/KK/AKos/QQ? If not, consider pushing here. Those are the only hands that dominate you. You are in a coin flip with any other pair and you are ahead of any other unpaired cards. Pushing negates the fact that you will be out-of-position during the hand. Further, it plays on your tight image. If you get called and lose, he still will likely realize that it was a coin flip hand. He will have to be a bit more careful in future games.
Pyroxene
 
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fade177
Old 01-10-2006, 03:16 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Just remember, I'm the first fade.... can't be stealin my thunder.... anyways think of odds as parts don't try and divide 1257 by 342 or somethings weird like that, go with 12.5/3.5 or about 3.25 to 1.... ya get me.....
We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world
 
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Fade
Old 01-10-2006, 03:30 PM #12 (permalink)  

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Fade
the guy hardly had anything. He had 5 and 8, giving him top pair and straight draw.

I think they're all just bad macho type LAGG players.
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DaHorror
Old 01-10-2006, 05:00 PM #13 (permalink)  
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In your situation, in the interest of making a stand, I might call that. You have two overs and the nut flush draw...the opponent is unlikely to be bluffing, but probably doesn't have a strong hand, and he obviously doesn't want a call.

Your odds?

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6c 8d 4d

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Qd 505 51.01 479 48.38 6 0.61 0.513
5s 8c 479 48.38 505 51.01 6 0.61 0.487

So you're in a coinflip situation even after a flop you missed. Not all that bad given that you do not want to be pushed around, and that should (over time anyway) influence the behavior of at least the overbettor in this case.
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aokrongly
Old 01-11-2006, 04:22 AM #14 (permalink)  
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aokrongly
WHOA,
Alot of advice going out on how to play the hand, when the hand is irrelevent.

Fade, the fact of the matter is that you haven't had enough Repetitions to learn Patterns. That's the main fact here. Listen carefully, because I'm a poker genius - lol. No really... I'm going to lay this out for you.

The key to poker is PATTERN RECOGNITION. Start thinking about poker that way. "If I do this it means...". Sooo, if someone else does it then it means about the same - give or take. Right? "If I raise preflop with AK then I normally raise THIS much... And if someone raises me back then I'll generally CALL THEM and see if I get an Ace or King on the flop." Do you do that? Most people do... It's a Pattern.

The alternate would be "If I have AA or KK then I raise preflop, and if someone reraises me then I'll reraise them back." Do people do that 100% of the time. Nothing is 100% - but generally.

Anyway, the point is that you have to see the patterns. And to see the patterns you have to play alot more than at the weekly home game with the boys. I know you played against the computer but you need to play microstakes No limit on Poker Stars. That way you'll get a feel for patterns. Play 10,000 hands - and watch every hand play out whether you're in it or not. Start looking for patterns.

That guy min raised preflop, what does that mean? (AJ, ATs, maybe KQs is what it means... but you need to learn). Pay attention to the betting, make notes and watch what cards get turned over. You'll start to see patterns.

Now you're playing NL Tournament style (or essentially a big SNG) so you may want to study SNG tactics. BTW your AQ raise getting pushed against - either laying it down OR calling it was the right move. It was 50/50 either way. So why worry about it? Here's why it's getting to you... you haven't played enough hands.

I can tell by your post that you're getting knotted up over your performance at the home game. There's lots of reasons why you might be losing. At least AQ is a quality holding. But god knows what else you're playing, how you're playing them etc. Get some experience. Read some books. Look for patterns. When you learn to recognize patterns and how to react to different patterns as they develop, then you'll start getting comfortable with knowing what to do in given situations. Don't think of it as MATH like odds and all that shit. Think of it as patterns.

BTW, I'm pretty good but there's a guy I play with at my home games.. a buddy who played at the US Poker Championship. Anyway, I've only ever beat this guy IN ONE HAND in 3 years. He always knows what I have. He always beats me or gets out before I can hurt him. Always. Except one time when I really slowplayed KK on him. But there are people who can read you. My advice - go play people who can't (I made 3x what my buddy made in poker in 2005 playing other people) or change so your buddy reads you wrong AND YOU LEARN HOW TO READ HIM.

good luck
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Murd0c
Old 01-11-2006, 04:30 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Aok you truly are a god among men.
Currently at UB playing $50 NLHE 6max.
Bankroll: ~$1900 (Almost BR'ed for 100NL.)
 
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Fade
Old 01-11-2006, 04:58 AM #16 (permalink)  

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Fade
thanks aok, you're most helpful.

I have never ever done that in a game yet, I still have a long way. I havn't got any poker books yet but I will soon.

definately
- David Sklansky's The Theory of Poker
- Doyle Brunsons Super System
- Caros Book of Poker Tells
- Ed Miller's Small Stakes Holdem

that sound about right?
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aokrongly
Old 01-11-2006, 03:33 PM #17 (permalink)  
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your home game tourney is essentially a big sng. or very small mtt. Get Dan Harrington's Harrington on Holdem Vol 1
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MannerBoy
Old 01-12-2006, 05:13 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
BTW, I'm pretty good but there's a guy I play with at my home games.. a buddy who played at the US Poker Championship. Anyway, I've only ever beat this guy IN ONE HAND in 3 years.
Live poker is rigged
Do you see why ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murd0c
Aok you truly are a god among men.
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lambchopdc
Old 01-25-2006, 10:13 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Listen carefully, because I'm a poker genius - lol. No really... I'm going to lay this out for you.
Poker geniuses don't borrow money, lose 50 buyins at 10NL (a game a monkey can beat) and then default on the loan. Just my 2 cents.

Don't hide from the truth, it will find you.
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Rondavu
Old 01-25-2006, 03:16 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Listen carefully, because I'm a poker genius - lol. No really... I'm going to lay this out for you.
Poker geniuses don't borrow money, lose 50 buyins at 10NL (a game a monkey can beat) and then default on the loan. Just my 2 cents.

Don't hide from the truth, it will find you.
Am I missing something? Sounds like none of my business.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Miffed22001
Old 01-25-2006, 03:51 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 looks like theres some bitching going on.
Im not one to talk but go do it in private.
Far too much ego stoking going on here.
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lambchopdc
Old 01-25-2006, 04:03 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
looks like theres some bitching going on.
Im not one to talk but go do it in private.
Far too much ego stoking going on here.
Sorry, just don't feel right letting the blind lead the blind.
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Muxy
Old 01-25-2006, 04:09 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
looks like theres some bitching going on.
Im not one to talk but go do it in private.
Far too much ego stoking going on here.
Sorry, just don't feel right letting the blind lead the blind.
Don't be hatin/.
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Miffed22001
Old 01-25-2006, 04:10 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
looks like theres some bitching going on.
Im not one to talk but go do it in private.
Far too much ego stoking going on here.
Sorry, just don't feel right letting the blind lead the blind.
do something about it then :P
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Muxy
Old 01-25-2006, 04:11 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
looks like theres some bitching going on.
Im not one to talk but go do it in private.
Far too much ego stoking going on here.
Sorry, just don't feel right letting the blind lead the blind.
do something about it then :P
are you retarded?
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Miffed22001
Old 01-25-2006, 04:13 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 /sarcasm :P
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Muxy
Old 01-25-2006, 04:14 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
/sarcasm :P
wow okkkk then.
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Miffed22001
Old 01-25-2006, 04:15 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 you got it now?

:P
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Rondavu
Old 01-25-2006, 04:28 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Christ what a bloodbath. For the record, everything Aok said is right on, regardless of other shit I don't wanna know about.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 01-31-2006, 12:34 AM #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
BB (me) with Ad Qd (about 800 left) raise to 200 BB folds
See because everyone know me as a tight player, they often make big moves against me. I folded that round. 3rd had pair 8.
No offense but that's a f**king awful fold.WOW.
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Fade
Old 02-02-2006, 11:09 AM #31 (permalink)  

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Fade
ok, that was quite some time ago but I still don't think it was that bad of a fold. I got over it. It's basically a coin flip situation, and you're going against a player who outnumbers you in chip stack, so basically, 50% chance you win big, the other 50% you lose everything.

If you analyse it properly, I did a moderate raise pre-flop and someone who would usually consider calling would either have good, connecting high cards or some pocket pairs. The fact that he had rags and called the bb and was willing to throw all his chips in the pot when he had a low pair without even wanting to know where I stand is ultimately a losing play if he continue to do that in the future.

anyways, I'm not terribly concerned with this game, just because I'm quite busy this year. However I would devote more time to improve and understand the game next year though.
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