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Revolver123
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12-22-2008, 08:48 PM
Post subject: Why are bad beats so costly?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 123
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It's my biggest pet peeve in poker. Today I spent 3 hours grinding up an extra $20 at 5nl and I lose $12 of it in 2 hands to bad beats.
I know there's bankroll management strategy and I'm definitely rolled well enough for 5nl but it's just so frustrating when three hours of work goes down the tube in 2 minutes.
I never seem to have the opposite happen either where I make a ton of money in just a few hands because I play ABC TAGG at 5NL.
How do you guys deal with this frustration?
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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Generally I'll just stop playing after the first bad beat if it's tilted me that much. Then look back over the hand and check that it's a genuine bad beat and I got my money in good...
I think winning slow and sometimes losing fast is why it's called grinding...
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Cole24b
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 11
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If I still have the urge to play (typically after I walk away for ten mintues) I change tables. I find myself seeking "revenge" on the person who gave me the bad beat and then I start leaking like crazy and making bad decisions out of spike.
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"If there was no luck involved I would win everytime." - Phil Hellmuth
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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You really ought to post the bad beats to determine if they really are bad beats. Most situations are clear cut, but I Think a lot of times there's a level of mis-play where you may have paid off a bad call making it "not" a bad beat.
The biggest reason that Bad Beats are so expensive? Because they effect you long after then had has passed.
Also. When you only have 100bb in front of you, getting stacked with top pair top kicker is a lot more acceptable than when you have 350bb in front of you. Getting stacked like that is a HUGE no no.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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Rarely when we get our monies in, are we a 100% (or even a 90%) favorite to win. This provides our opponents with many opportunities to suck out on us.
It also accounts for 95% of poker-related mental-illnesses.
The more you grind, the more bad beats you see, and the less they sting when you get them. They are simply an inevitable part of this game that you've just got to accept. Some days you'll see more than your fair share, and some days you'll see less. Try not to go crazy on the former, and try not to get cocky on the latter.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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how do I handle it: If it truly is a "Bad Beat" I would make a note on my opponent on how grossly he missplayed his hand, and try to get into that exact same sitaution in the future, and make money, lots and lots of money.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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The bad beats cost you money, but not the hand itself. Over the long run you should get closer and closer to what your expected value was over all hands that you played. For example you really want your opponent to make -EV calls with draws, or call you preflop with weaker hands (same concept)... that's whats making you money.
Maybe visualizing your equity helps. If you get it in as a 70/30 favourite - only 70% of the pot is yours. 30% belongs to your opponent.
I agree however that it's still hard to deal with over the short term. I thought I was pretty bad beat resistent, and I can go on 5 buy-in downswings and more or less shrugg it off, but this month I'm running 50% under my expectation over 30k hands for €1000, and that's still hard to stomach. I won't get that money back, but at least I know that over the course of the next 100k hands it won't matter.
A big part of the psychology of it is that you got emotionally attached to the pot, but the pot is not yours if you don't have the winning hand on the river. I made it a ritual to click reload at almost every all-in situation, just to prepare for loosing the pot. The beats that tilt the most are when you fully expected that the pot was yours.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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spoonitnow
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12-23-2008, 12:32 AM
Post subject: Re: Why are bad beats so costly?
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#8 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Revolver123
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If you know this is the case then what you need to do is find where your insecurities about losing are coming from and deal with them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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killerkebab
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12-23-2008, 02:34 AM
Post subject: Re: Why are bad beats so costly?
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#9 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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Bad beats are not costly, by their very definition. If losing all your money in an all-in situation was unlikely to happen then you can't possibly say your decision cost you.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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The cost of bad beats are mostly emotional.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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you say that you're rolled well enough for 5NL. if you're overrolled, then you should be able to easily shrug off the beat and not even feel any change in your overall BR
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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All of the times when your hand was good when the money went in and it held up, in a sense you robbed a portion of the pot from your opponent (that portion equal to their percentage chance of winning). Just look at bad beats at the end of your session as the luck evening out. Because of your skill, you still ended up ahead.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The cost of bad beats are mostly emotional.
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Stop trying to put words to it, guys.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I've broken a mouse, headset, and oh yea, another mouse this month. Total cost of tilting= $55
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allabout
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 276
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I've broken a mouse, headset, and oh yea, another mouse this month. Total cost of tilting= $55
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Cost of letting go of your emotions....priceless
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allabout
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I've broken a mouse, headset, and oh yea, another mouse this month. Total cost of tilting= $55
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Cost of letting go of your emotions....priceless |
actual, I just put an actual price on it
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I've broken a mouse, headset, and oh yea, another mouse this month. Total cost of tilting= $55
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Honestly, I lol'd this one, the guy in the cubicle next to me actually asked what made me laugh.
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kingme620
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12-25-2008, 05:55 AM
Post subject: Re: Why are bad beats so costly?
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#18 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 75
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Revolver123
I spent 3 hours grinding up an extra $20 at 5nl and I lose $12 of it in 2 hands to bad beats. ?
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You're too concentrated on the money earned. Think of the 3 hours spent more like experience gained. Eventually you'll move up and that $12 lost will really feel like nothing.
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FlowJoe
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 83
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Well you could look at it, that one day you will be playing at higher stakes and your bad beat will be even more costly. LOSING IS A PART OF THE GAME! Sorry to be so blunt but Somebody has to win, somebody has to lose. Pro's also lose hands so obviously, anybody can and do! WIthout the actual hand though, we have to take your word that it was actually a BAD BEAT and not a hand you got married to...til death (BB) do you part!
Better Luck in the NEW YEAR,
FLOW
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What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!
  
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Revolver123
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 123
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THe point is being missed here. The question isn't why are bad beats so costly to one's bankroll because if they were costly to one's bankroll, then one wouldn't be rolled properly for the stakes.
The question is, why does one or two bad beats destroy 2/3 of the income that took two hours to grind up? It's so frustrating when you spend two hours in tedium grinding away at 6 tables, taking down small pots, getting closer and closer to the nearest benchmark, only to have almost all of that work done for nothing because some lucky idiot hit a full house with 69o when you hit your flush.
That is the question. And it isn't that some bad beats do that.. it's that almost ALL bad beats do that! Is there a trick to make these bad beats less costly so it doesn't destroy one's motivation to keep grinding in the cash games?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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Apologies if it's been said, I skimmed a few replies
The questions are:
1) without the bad beats, would you have ground up that profit to begin with?
2) Why do you think the fish are sitting there for you to outplay them?
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Stop looking at poker in terms of sessions and whether good luck or bad beats define them. Start looking at the big picture and be more results oriented in the long-term. And if you got your money in good and some fish made a horrible call and sucked out on the river, so be it because you'll want him to make that same horrible call over and over again.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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...because I push my edges hard.
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Revolver123
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 123
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Fnord, you will be happy to know that I am Police Officer on the DF. At least here you are participating in legal activities ::thumbs up::
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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So you were still $8 up, almost 2 buy-ins.. after two horrible beats thats pretty damn good. Keep that in mind please.
Next session, there won't be those beats and you will instead gain 6 buy-ins.
The more bad beats you take, the better a player you are.. it means your money is in good a lot 
O
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Play play-money limit hold'em and raise every hand till your buy in is gone. It's way more fun losing money that isn't real.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
A big part of the psychology of it is that you got emotionally attached to the pot, but the pot is not yours if you don't have the winning hand on the river. I made it a ritual to click reload at almost every all-in situation, just to prepare for loosing the pot. The beats that tilt the most are when you fully expected that the pot was yours.
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Probably my favourite post in this thread. I do the same.
If I feel prone to tilting and getting emotionally attached in a given situation I make a point to think over my decision once more, put all the money in, reload and look at a different table as the hand plays out and then try to forget about it.
In this, I am giving up the edge that the additional information (what he actually played this way) can give me in future hands (though I can of course always check the hand history), but I am preventing tilt, which allows me to play better for longer.
The situations that are most likely to cause tilt are mostly self created. Basically what you do is you envision one result as the one you are going for (you winning, typically), you get emotionally attached to that outcome and even if you might intellectually accept that other outcomes are possible, you do not prepare yourself emotionally for those other possible outcomes. So when they occur they still manage to shock you and that starts the whole rollercoaster of tilt.
I believe the trick is to learn to be intellectually and emotionally prepared for any of the remaining 47 or 46 cards to come with everything that entails, and to understand how that effects your equity before it suddenly comes around and slaps you in the face with the loss of a stack. I think a great way to build this resiliency is to analyse hands and situations to a point where you more intuitively understand how equity changes depending on what cards come. This should remove some of the surprise element and allow you to assess dispassionately whether your action was +EV in the first place and not get bogged down in whether or not the outcome in this particular hand gained or cost you money.
As some of the more experienced people in this thread also said - if you understand your equity against your opponents range on a given street calculate with winning your 70% and losing the opponents 30% in your head and in your emotions, ignoring the actual outcome of the hand - this should help tiltproof you. You do need to play mind-games with yourself and practice this particular perspective and technique for it to be effective, but it's a pretty important thing to do as playing on tilt will cost you lots more money than you can earn by playing well.
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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Bad beats are costly- suckouts are profitable.
Become better at suckouts and avoid bad beats. You need to really push hands like backdoor flushes, gutshots and underpairs/ undercards hard in order to become the Suckout King. Following the same line of reasoning you should fold whenever you know you are in front.
On a more serious note, maybe you are not pushing your edges hard enough? If you only push 70/30 situations and folding 55/45 situations your good hands need to hold up often to sustain a profitable winrate.
Couple of thoughts:
- You grind and grind until you lose a big pot- then quit.
- Losing feels worse than winning feels good.
- Suckouts are common for fish and sharks, not for TAG fish
- Everything is possible in poker. Sometimes you can not lose even how hard you try.
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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it just takes time, experience and discipline. comprehension of expected value and variance along with self confidence helps dealing with it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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