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Is this why AQ should be checked in the BB?

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iloveyoooo

05-12-2006, 11:32 PM Post subject: Is this why AQ should be checked in the BB?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 38

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($27.29)
MP3 ($33.03)
CO ($16.80)
Button ($6.50)
SB ($6.10)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($12.19)
UTG+1 ($25.74)
MP1 ($34.14)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, Q

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($2.35) A

, 8

, J

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP1 calls $2.

Turn: ($6.35) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP1 calls $4.

River: ($14.35) J

(2 players)
Hero bets $6, MP1 raises to $12.

Final Pot: $32.35

I actually raised to $1 preflop. Fold the river? He has :Ks: Jx right?

I'm completely lost on the river actually, was $6 just a silly bet...

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RevolverX

05-13-2006, 12:32 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 112

KJ and no preflop raise? Maybe. I put him on suited connectors.

iloveyoooo

05-13-2006, 12:56 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 38

Thanks for the input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevolverX

KJ and no preflop raise? Maybe. I put him on suited connectors.

I've seen better and worse than KJ limped at $25nl. You think he flopped a baby flush and was living dangerously? I can see him maybe calling the flop with a flush with the intention of raising the turn...

Unfortunately this was my very first hand at the table so I had no reads.

What's the best move oop on the river with these stack sizes?

...I try not to make a habit of putting half my stack in the pot without showdown

crushednuts

05-13-2006, 02:28 AM

#4 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 106

I'd shut down after the flop. Not a good flop for you. AK still beats you AJ out flopped you and Any hand with a spade has a huge draw (Not to mention any one w/ 2 spades in their hand has you pwned). The only hands that are going to call your flop bet are those w/ strong draws or made hands. All the weak stuff will fold. Sketchy situation to put yourself in.

I like your raise here preflop. Gives you a chance to outplay your opponent HU. Unfortunately you got as bad a flop as you could get w/o missing it completely (in fact, missing it completely might be better!)

I disagree w/ the suited connectors idea. I think the villian has AJ and hopes that you made a flush now that he has filled up...would explain his call of your raise too as noobs love this hand

Sometimes the nuts just get crushed

-crush3dnuts

crush3dnuts@yahoo.com

DaHorror

05-13-2006, 03:06 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 616

J x makes plenty of sense here.
As does 88 if he was a really passive player (I have seen this type of play from a passive set on a flush board til they hit a FH a few times - but it's player specific then).

Most will say to raise the AQ from the BB, particularly in a limped 3-way pot. I don't think your play was poor - you may still have the best hand at the river so you put out a blocking/value bet --- I've even seen a weaker flush just call there...but he says you're beat - adios. Good fold.

pgil

05-13-2006, 03:58 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

why not go into a defensive check-call mode on the flop? obviously only call reasonable bets, but it will allow you to keep the pot small, which is a good thing when you are in a murky situation such as this.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

jackvance

05-13-2006, 09:24 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pgil

Not on the flop yet. This is results-oriented thinking because he ended up being beat (probably) in this hand, in general you don't know that. I think his flop play was good.. you'll often get a fold here. But when Villain calls a bet that is close to the pot there, your reaction should be "oh crap, time to control the pot!"

I would suggest two lines here: first, raise hard (close to pot) like you did on the flop, then go with petty 1/3-1/4 pot bets. If you get raised, toss it. Way too many hand beat you here. Second, raise 2/3 pot on the flop. I'd say the flop is scary enough, if he missed this is enough to fold him out. If he calls, then proceed as before with 1/3-1/4 pot bets.

So as played, I make it $1.50-$2 on the turn. If you bet $1.50 on the flop and he calls, the pot is $5.35 so you can bet another $1.50 there.

iloveyoooo

05-13-2006, 11:11 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 38

The only reason I didn't shut down as that I could imagine being called down by a weaker Ace. I have a problem OOP where I can't stop betting as I don't want to be bluffed

.

I should have realised a weaker ace would check behind on the turn and I could have value bet any rag river.

Quote:

I would suggest two lines here: first, raise hard (close to pot) like you did on the flop, then go with petty 1/3-1/4 pot bets. If you get raised, toss it.

The weak bet tactic only gives good odds to a strong draw so do you not think that just helps opp play +EV?

It seemed an easy fold (which I did) as a simple missed flush draw would not simply min raise the river. I could probably have saved myself $10 if I'd read this thread though.

jackvance

05-13-2006, 11:59 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iloveyoooo

The weak bet tactic only gives good odds to a strong draw so do you not think that just helps opp play +EV?

In this board, with your hand, pot control takes preference over pricing draws.

TLR

05-13-2006, 01:07 PM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

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Posts: 5,007

TLR is an unknown quantity at this point

Your PFR was fine in this hand.
I think your flop raise was fine, but once you get called I check the turn and may call a reasonable bet. I think he probaby had draws to both flush and str8 - KsQx, QsTx etc...

pgil

05-13-2006, 03:02 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

Quote:

Originally Posted by iloveyoooo

The weak bet tactic only gives good odds to a strong draw so do you not think that just helps opp play +EV?

In this board, with your hand, pot control takes preference over pricing draws.

isnt that a good reason to check the turn. this keeps the pot smaller and makes villain more likely to make a smaller bet on the river.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

jackvance

05-13-2006, 03:15 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pgil

isnt that a good reason to check the turn. this keeps the pot smaller and makes villain more likely to make a smaller bet on the river.

That depends entirely on reads for me. "Standard" I go for lower blocking bets. I'd rather bet a bit lower on the flop there (2/3 pot instead of pot) and lead weak if I get called, rather than bet big and then check.. that's such a weak pathetic line to take. I could take that line if my opponent is more of a scared player/nit however. If they don't fold, you are usually beat. But if Villain has shown to have some initiative or aggression in him, I'll go for a weak, blocking bet-like lead on the turn. I can't really explain it, but it's more consistent..

In my experience, if it was a speculative call on the flop, the turn bet folds them. If they stay in after that, it's time to look at the board clearly and run all the possibilities in my head.

andy-akb

05-13-2006, 04:43 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Preflop you hve to limpers ahead of you, Id want to raise to around $1.50.

On the flop I think I would pot it, and then play very carefully after that checking the turn and most likely folding to a sizeable bet. Your hand isnt that strong anymore and your dont need to get too attached to it, Id try to get to showdown cheaply or just fold on a later street. I hate the minraises that litter the PP $25nl games and never really know what to think of them. Usually a river minraise means strength so that play depends much more on your read of the villain and if you think you are ahead enough to make a call profitable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevolverX

KJ and no preflop raise? Maybe. I put him on suited connectors.

A lot of people dont raise KJ unless there are no [or only one] limpers and they are in LP. Reraising KJ with a few limpers and a raise ahead of you is really loose.

pgil

05-13-2006, 05:33 PM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

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Posts: 1,103

it might be just because hero is out of position in this hand, but I think the check on the flop will tell you a lot more about the strength of a typical opps hand at these stakes. let them take the initiative (or not) on the flop and react accordingly. if checked around on the flop, then I would make the 2/3 bet on the non spade turn.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

benny999

05-14-2006, 12:35 AM

#15 (permalink)

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I usually have trouble with these "win a small pot, don't lose a large one" type hands too. I also like the raise pf, although I'd bet a little less on the turn (1/2 pot) and river (1/3 pot) as mentioned. but after thinking about it more, I agree with pgil, and actually like checking the flop. it isn't being results oriented. Here's my analysis:

Bad because...
1- draws get infinite odds
2- if he bets you end up in the same spot, and checking looks weak, so he could be bluffing.

Good because...
1- you're prob check/folding to a 4 toned board anyways. why not wait for a move when there's only one street left? it keeps the pot from inflating so quick. if he checks behind, then price out a likely draw on the turn, one which could easily have about 50/50 odds on the flop. and in this case betting the flop gets you about the same info as checking.
2- if he bets to flop, you can call and lead the turn. he folds his bluff, but now your in about the same spot.

Point is, I think checking the flop gives about the same EV but lower variance.

05-17-2006, 02:23 PM

#16 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 6

Hero only has TPTK (maybe) and needs to know where he stands ASAP. I think the pot bet at the flop is good play because it forces the Villain to play -EV on a draw, or getting valuable information about a stronger hand.

On the turn I am checking. Either he is playing -EV and you won't be able to shake him, or he has a made hand. It allows you to see what move he makes, and that will be invaluable in playing the River. It also lets you get there cheaply, or you can just get out of the hand altogether.

Getting into a pot for 2/3 stack with TPTK is what you want other players to do with your made hands, not the other way around.

Turska

05-18-2006, 06:30 AM Post subject: KsJx yes

#17 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 254

If hes a solid player thats what the betting pattern tells.
You made a good flop bet but he maybe called that because
of implied odds. Maybe he thought that call here would make
u check later.

Turn bet is good too but I cant really say villain is making
a mistake calling it. he has 11 outs at least. If we are really
strict here he should have folded here.

River reraise so small amount is hardly ever bluff. He wants
u to call.

Very tricky hand but generally 3 fl on board with TPTK i
make the flop bet as u did if it is called i will get out
very quick.

pgil

05-18-2006, 03:30 PM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

this hand seems like the quintisential WA/WB situation. mainly because if opp has a flush draw he isnt going anywhere, but if he makes a big bet anywhere along the way, without a solid read we have to give him a hand that beats TPGK.
on this board only draws and hands that beat you are calling. if you cant reliably tell the difference between a missed draw trying to bluff the river and a made hand making a value bet on the river, then I think you should treat it as a WA/WB situation. this way a lesser ace could bet into you, the 8 or the J may even bet into you on the turn if its checked around on the flop. either way, without a dead solid read a cheaper showdown looks like a better line, and the way to the cheapest showdown would seem to be check-call. the only hands that would fold to the flop bet are those that missed completely, or the baby flush draws (possibly, though they may stay around. i have seen someone chase an 8 high flush where only had 1 card of the flush suit).

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

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Is this why AQ should be checked in the BB?

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