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wellrounded08
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08-21-2008, 02:38 AM
Post subject: Why am I shoving these Kings?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Alright, in these micro-stakes There are plenty of opponents to choose from, 90% of which I would laugh like a gitty girl If I could get an all in against with KK. HOWEVER, I find myself in a situtation that I am baffled by my decision making. It is only because of micro-limit mindset that I loose so much money here.
Suppose I'm up against a regular multi-tabler. I raise, he reraises, I reraise, he Pushes, why am I calling this?(supposing we're are both deep.) There are only two things he's doing this with, AA, KK. Basicly, my hand has now turned into a set hunt. Sure maybe he has KK and we split, but then the rake is just kicking my ass. Or, and more possibly he's got Aces, and I'm a long shot.
Pokerstove:
AA,KK-77%
KK-22%
The reason I'm posting this is not because It's something other players don't know, or should know, it's because This is my thought process, and I think that it is in my best interest to present this to FTR and see if I am off track in my reasoning.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Yes and no. A couple of seeds from my abnormally large melon...
1)
Quote:
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Suppose I'm up against a regular multi-tabler
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At 10NL this much of a read don't mean sh!t. I disagree their shove range is auto AA,KK. Unless they're a documented nit (i.e. a PFR of 2), you gotta open that range up a bit. I've seen a lot of people w/ decent "TAGGY" stats stacking off PF w/ QQ+, AKo, AKs, AQs, even JJ and TT. A few reasons you see this wider range? For some people it's a semi-bluff and they're hoping your 3-betting light and they can shove you off your hand. Some people get married to the pot at this level after a 3 or 4-bet so they all like "f-it, ALL IN!" Stick that wider range into PokerStove and see what you get...
2) If you only ever shove AI PF w/ AA you will never stack me pre-flop. If I know KK is in your range, I may also assume QQ might be... plus if I suck at maths (like many $10NLs... and well, I do suck at maths...) I may be tempted to call you with AK thinking I only gotta spike my A -- all of which is positive EV for you sitting there with KK.
3) If I know you can be pushed off KK 3-bets consistently with a pre-flop shove.... well, guess where I'm going w/ my JJ+ or AKs.
So in a nutshell, my opinion is you include KK in your PF shove range 'cause 1) over the long haul you will win over wider stack-off ranges and 2) it increases the odds you will get called by hands that are behind you PF.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Like I said in the other thread sar, I always appreciate your input. And I see where your coming from. Note however, that It is completely against certain players that I say this, My preflop stacking range when dealing with Short -stackers can be as low as any PP.(Because of the thread I read about it.) and against an unknown, KK is easily in there, and against a loose player QQ or maybe less, it's all situational. And like you said, only take this from my range if dealing with True Nits, and that is infact what I am refferencing. Or should I simply try and stack off EVERY time I get these?
BTW, I played with Stove a bit and came up with this:
QQ,KK,AA, AKo, AKS:42%
KK: 57%
Even further loose:
JJ+, AQs+, AQo+:34%
KK:65%
So I'm deffinately Track'n!
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allabout
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 276
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I think if you never fold KK preflop to an all in you'll still be fine. I can think of 1 time I folded KK preflop when I would have been all in, and I would have won one of the biggest pots of my life (he had QQ), so after that I never really fold it.
This year at 50 and 100nl I've gotten KK all in preflop 741 times and won 57.8% of the time for 163bb/100. This includes loose players, tight players, ss, etc, but still you would be surprised what kind of hands even tight players will shove occasionally.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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If you 3-bet bluff like at all then you pretty much have to stack off with KK preflop 100bb deep.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
If you 3-bet bluff like at all then you pretty much have to stack off with KK preflop 100bb deep.
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Spoon - Can you elaborate for my edification?
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