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Who Likes to Play AQ for a 3-Bet PF?

  
 
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 04:05 AM     Post subject: Who Likes to Play AQ for a 3-Bet PF? #1 (permalink)  
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As in treating it like AK?
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dpe8598
Old 11-02-2006, 04:19 AM #2 (permalink)  
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nutsinho
Old 11-02-2006, 04:28 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Depending on the situation I am folding or 3betting AQo vs a raise when I'm in position. I hate calling with it. From the blinds I often muck it facing a good-sized raise even if the raiser is a little loose. With AQs I am only folding against a complete nit, and otherwise calling like 75%/reraising 25% ish
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 11-02-2006, 06:37 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Nutsinho posted how I play AQ as well. 3bet/fold sometimes in position, rarely call. Fold in the blinds to a real raise from somebody that isn't a retard.
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Thee One
Old 11-02-2006, 06:28 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I never 3-bet AQo, but I'll raise with it or call a raise if the player has a moneybag next to his name. Learning how to fold it has saved me good money though...people don't fold AK on an A-high flop and I hate TP2ndK anyway.

AQs gets a call preflop unless I'm sure I'm up against AA or KK.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 06:41 PM #6 (permalink)  
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why does AQs suited get much more love? i didn't think the suited-ness added very much to it's value.
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Thee One
Old 11-02-2006, 06:47 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
why does AQs suited get much more love? i didn't think the suited-ness added very much to it's value.
Extra outs never hurt...
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 06:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thee One
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
why does AQs suited get much more love? i didn't think the suited-ness added very much to it's value.
Extra outs never hurt...
obviously, but I didn't think the suited-ness made up enough equity to change folding to a 5bb pfr to calling.
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Rondavu
Old 11-02-2006, 07:15 PM #9 (permalink)  
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AQs is played much different than AQo is loose limit games. AQs has good multiway raised pot value, and AQo is garbage in these games. I think that's where that comes from. In a tight aggressive limit game they aren't that much different.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 07:35 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
AQs is played much different than AQo is loose limit games. AQs has good multiway raised pot value, and AQo is garbage in these games. I think that's where that comes from. In a tight aggressive limit game they aren't that much different.
yes, i could def. see that in limit. so in NL, you think they run close together?
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Thee One
Old 11-02-2006, 08:38 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
AQs is played much different than AQo is loose limit games. AQs has good multiway raised pot value, and AQo is garbage in these games. I think that's where that comes from. In a tight aggressive limit game they aren't that much different.
yes, i could def. see that in limit. so in NL, you think they run close together?
My thinking is it's not always going to be AK vs AQ, sometimes villan has A9+, but in the event that it is, I have redraws to something other than 2-pair on the right flop and on the wrong flop I know not to get too heavily involved i.e. play a small pot.

Secondly, I don't mind pushing at AK on an A high flop with 2 to the flush. With AQo, that's not going to happen so those times I hit my flush or take it down when villain doesn't want to play for stacks makes up for the pre-flop raises and small post-flop bets I called and mucked to.

So I guess I'm saying...implied odds.
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Fnord
Old 11-02-2006, 08:43 PM #12 (permalink)  
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AK and AQ are great hands, I usually play them.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 09:35 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
AK and AQ are great hands, I usually play them.
i assume you generally like to play AQ for a 3bet then?
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Fnord
Old 11-02-2006, 09:49 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
AK and AQ are great hands, I usually play them.
i assume you generally like to play AQ for a 3bet then?
I said I like to play them. They're fun hands in that I think there are a lot of different ways to play them and they're in a lot of my ranges by design.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 09:54 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
AK and AQ are great hands, I usually play them.
i assume you generally like to play AQ for a 3bet then?
I said I like to play them. They're fun hands in that I think there are a lot of different ways to play them and they're in a lot of my ranges by design.
so do you not 3bet AK a majority of the time?
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dpe8598
Old 11-02-2006, 09:58 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
AK and AQ are great hands, I usually play them.
i assume you generally like to play AQ for a 3bet then?
I said I like to play them. They're fun hands in that I think there are a lot of different ways to play them and they're in a lot of my ranges by design.
so do you not 3bet AK a majority of the time?
WOw, this is like pulling teeth, eh?
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 09:59 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpe8598
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
AK and AQ are great hands, I usually play them.
i assume you generally like to play AQ for a 3bet then?
I said I like to play them. They're fun hands in that I think there are a lot of different ways to play them and they're in a lot of my ranges by design.
so do you not 3bet AK a majority of the time?
WOw, this is like pulling teeth, eh?
lol it seems like he's avoiding the question.
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BankItDrew
Old 11-02-2006, 11:01 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 I fold or raise it. Only calling if OOP with multiple callers. (leak?)

I have found that I can get a lot of folds after a raiser makes it 4bb and i push it to 12bb. In position, AQ 3betting is working well.


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TerryToma
Old 11-02-2006, 11:30 PM #19 (permalink)  
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lately i like to 3 bet AQ pf against those who raise >12% preflop:

opponent 28/17

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $15.65
UTG+1: $50
MP1: $54.75
CO: $49.25
Hero: $61.05
SB: $48.25
BB: $25

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is Button with Q A
UTG calls, 2 folds, CO raises to $2.25, Hero raises to $6, 3 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 8 T 2 ($13.25, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $11, CO folds.
Uncalled bets: $11 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $13.25

ill let you know how it turns out overall.
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 11-02-2006, 11:34 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryToma
lately i like to 3 bet AQ pf against those who raise >12% preflop:

opponent 28/17
I think your range should be much wider against this opponent in this spot. I'd 3bet 88+ and hands as weak as KJs. If I was feeling frisky or tilty I'd 3bet with 9Ts.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-02-2006, 11:38 PM #21 (permalink)  
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this thread stemmed from "ilikeaces' guide to beating 6max (and later adjusted for fr) the easy way". he said to 3bet AA-TT, AK/AQ, and i couldn't think of seeing too many hh's around here in the past of hero 3betting AQ PF.
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Blinky
Old 11-03-2006, 12:05 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Fnord is giving you the roundabout: "It Depends." (do.u.c.y.? )

It really depends on the situation. I'm no poker expert but at a certain point, reads >>> cards. Playing poker mechanically is -EV.

Is the initial raiser looser preflop? If so, I am more liable to reraise.

Are there many people already in the pot? Depending on the number and my estimation of them, I may raise to steal or fold.

What is my position? Has the initial raiser been abusing position with frequent raises from CO or BN?

etc etc etc... so, I would be hard-pressed to say that I always reraise AQ pre or never reraise AQ pre...

1. UTG+1 was not a strong player in my estimation. He got a chunk of his stack from a rivered OESD after all opp's money got in the pot. He was fairly loose preflop... and I tangled with him in an earlier hand which was played very strangely (minbet +$1 on the turn, then pushed when I checked river to him - I was pretty close to making a disgusting call for a stack with bottom pair).

Anyways...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($98.50)
SB ($139)
Hero ($100)
UTG ($106.85)
UTG+1 ($225.85)
MP1 ($79.90)
MP2 ($12.90)
MP3 ($150.20)
CO ($98.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $4, 6 folds, Hero raises to $12, UTG+1 calls $8.

Flop: ($24.50) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $16, UTG+1 calls $16.

Turn: ($56.50) (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: ($56.50) (2 players)
Hero bets $40, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $96.50

2. don't remember the details of this one. Even though I hit the flop here, I'm cbetting about 99.999% of the time.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($76.65)
UTG+1 ($91.70)
MP1 ($102)
MP2 ($32.30)
MP3 ($102.25)
Hero ($89.50)
Button ($104.60)
SB ($62.65)
BB ($57.60)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
4 folds, MP3 raises to $5, Hero raises to $13, 3 folds, MP3 calls $8.

Flop: ($27.50) , , (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $15, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: $42.50

3.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP2 ($100)
CO ($46.10)
Button ($56.45)
Hero ($135.85)
BB ($152.30)
UTG ($79)
MP1 ($54.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $5, 2 folds, Hero raises to $12, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP2 calls $7.

Flop: ($26) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $15, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $41

4. Position is always nice.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($107.05)
MP2 ($55.75)
CO ($76.15)
Button ($104.75)
SB ($111.40)
BB ($51.10)
UTG ($29.35)
Hero ($84.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
UTG raises to $4, Hero raises to $10, 6 folds, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($21.50) , , (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $12, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $33.50

5. Soemtimes it doesn't always work out so well. Mp1 was running hot and had gained my respect.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP2 ($180.60)
Hero ($99)
CO ($55.30)
Button ($100)
SB ($52.75)
BB ($61.45)
UTG ($39)
UTG+1 ($19.60)
MP1 ($134.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with , .
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $12, 4 folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $8.

Flop: ($27.50) , , (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $15, MP1 calls $15.

Turn: ($57.50) (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($57.50) (2 players)
MP1 bets $14, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $71.50

6. Sometimes, it may save you money.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG+1 ($99.50)
MP1 ($12)
Hero ($101.55)
MP3 ($102)
CO ($65.95)
Button ($166.30)
SB ($63)
BB ($136.75)
UTG ($32.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $9, 5 folds, UTG+1 raises to $27, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $37.50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
 
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dpe8598
Old 11-03-2006, 12:12 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Nice hands blinky. I'm not sure I like the 1st and 2nd to last though. I feel like the flop stab, turn check, river bluff gets called down to much to make it profitable. I know I would have called you in those 2 hands w/ anything but a busted draw. Maybe I need to reevaluate this. Is this play profitable for you in general?
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martindcx1e
Old 11-03-2006, 12:41 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky
Fnord is giving you the roundabout: "It Depends." (do.u.c.y.? )

It really depends on the situation. I'm no poker expert but at a certain point, reads >>> cards. Playing poker mechanically is -EV.
obviously, but i guarantee almost everyone would say 3bet AK almost always (as in "IN GENERAL"). what makes AQ so different?
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Blinky
Old 11-03-2006, 12:45 AM #25 (permalink)  
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1st hand shouldn't entirely be taken in isolation. I wouldn't say that this is a typical river line I would take. You're right as it probagly gets called

5th hand - what don't you like? I'm probably beat: turn card couldn't have helped me and I don't think I have any fold equity... thus I'll take my free card.

Keep in mind that I don't always reraise AQ. It really depends on the situation. If you increase your question to the range of hands and situations that I'm willing to reraise, I'd say reraising with a wider range than AA/KK/AK is definitely +ev for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
 
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dpe8598
Old 11-03-2006, 12:47 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky
1st hand shouldn't entirely be taken in isolation. I wouldn't say that this is a typical river line I would take. You're right as it probagly gets called

5th hand - what don't you like? I'm probably beat: turn card couldn't have helped me and I don't think I have any fold equity... thus I'll take my free card.

Keep in mind that I don't always reraise AQ. It really depends on the situation. If you increase your question to the range of hands and situations that I'm willing to reraise, I'd say reraising with a wider range than AA/KK/AK is definitely +ev for me.
I read 5th hand wrong, thought you made that last bet. Thought it was same line as 1st hand.
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Fnord
Old 11-03-2006, 10:00 AM #27 (permalink)  
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For what it's worth, I think it's wrong to always 3-bet or call or even play AK/AQ. Make a read, mix it up a bit and tend to play it, IMHO. It's not a monster, it's just a good playable hand.
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Chopper
Old 11-04-2006, 07:49 PM #28 (permalink)  
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i fold it most times.

i 3 bet it when i have position and can isolate a true maniac...only.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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martindcx1e
Old 11-04-2006, 09:06 PM #29 (permalink)  
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for those that 3bet AK regularly but not AQ...what makes AQ so radically different from AK? is it just that you think you will lose a lot of $ to AK and maybe KK over time?
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Old 11-04-2006, 09:32 PM #30 (permalink)  
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i believe that is the reason you will find. AK and QQ open up 2 more domination hands.

i, however, may not be the best one to comment, as i dont 3-bet AK very often, either.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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melinda27
Old 11-05-2006, 04:17 AM #31 (permalink)  
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I mostly 3 bet AQs in position and call AQo with the intention of raising a continuation bet 75% of the time. Out of position alot of it depends on stack sizes with AQo getting alot of folds and AQs getting a lot of calls with the intention of check raising continuation bets if I have overcards and/or 1 to my flush. K high flops I usually bet out on about 30% of the time and just check fold the rest. On A high flops i just fire out 3 small blocking type bets to try to see a cheap showdown and maybe get some value from KK. If i meet too much resistance I let it go.
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Elexshun
Old 11-05-2006, 09:08 AM #32 (permalink)  

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3 bet AQ in position. (if its already been raised, evaluate opposition)
Call AQ out of position.

"Why does it make that much difference if its suited" ?

The answer is: Over a long run those small increases in starting odds are hugely important in overall profitability. I believe the suited gives you 3% better odds (?)

"Is AK really that much different than AQ" ?

Large pots: AK v QQ :O
AQ v QQ

AK v AQ
AQ v AK

AhKh v 99 flop Ad 9h 2h :O
AhKd v 99 flop Ad 9h 2h
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benny999
Old 11-05-2006, 09:17 AM #33 (permalink)  
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fwiw, here are my thoughts...
just mix it up, and think more about why you're reraising then what hand you're reraising.
don't destack 100bbs+ with AQ TP hands without good reads.
AK is better because you will get called by worse hands a ton more often than with AQ.
Usually reraising AQ is more for fold equity and isolation.
Suited cards are better not only for the 1% or whatever extra pot equity, but because you can semi bluff more often, which is important if ur playing regulars or tighter opps.
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Fnord
Old 11-05-2006, 09:56 AM #34 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i believe that is the reason you will find. AK and QQ open up 2 more domination hands.

i, however, may not be the best one to comment, as i dont 3-bet AK very often, either.
Most hands I play in the games I play don't reach showdown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Chopper
Old 11-05-2006, 03:24 PM #35 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i believe that is the reason you will find. AK and QQ open up 2 more domination hands.

i, however, may not be the best one to comment, as i dont 3-bet AK very often, either.
Most hands I play in the games I play don't reach showdown.
does this mean you 3 bet AQ/AK to isolate or take initiative. then bet like hell no matter the flop to force a fold? or simply that your limits are no longer "no fold em, hold em?"

i agree with the 3bet for iso, but the cbet into a J 6 3 rainbow gets called, i slow down. do you continue like you have AA?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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