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Demiparadigm
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03-24-2005, 02:52 AM
Post subject: Who lays this down?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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I was recently in a hand very similar to an example in Harrington's book.
This is how it went down:
$300 Max buy in $3/$5 blinds.
My table image is very tight. I have played 3 of the last 25 hands, took 2 down on the flop, and showed QQ when I folded on a AKJ flop.
I am dealt KK in EP. Raise to $25
MP player (Tight Agressive) calls. BB (weak) calls.
The pot is $75 after $3 rake
Flop is 885 with 2 clubs. I have the K of clubs.
I bet $50.
MP Raises $150 to $200
BB calls all in for $80
Action is to me.
There is no way I think a TA player called my EP raise of 5x BB with an 8 or 5. The BB could have anything.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Is the TAgg tricky?
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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A little tricky.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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All in, probably. I'm not sure if you'll win the main pot, but I have to think you're a favorite in the bigger (if he calls) side pot. I'd assume he has a flush draw or high pocket pair, which could be AA, but more likely would be a lower pair than your kings. Considering you're probably the favorite to win the side pot and still have a decent shot in the main one, I think you gotta go with it.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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that's tough. i think though, you'll at least win the side pot a majority of the time, and some of the time you'll grab the whole thing, i think you'll win enough of it enough of the time to make it a good call.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,128
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whats to say he doesnt have the 8 or 55? Playing against a player such as yourself I would make the call with 55 or 78suited all day to your raise and those stacks.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Agreed - you could be looking at pocket 5s or the surprise suited connectors like 78, 89. BB could have an 8 possibly. I think on the basis of whether you'd likely win or lose, I'd fold here - someone has you beat. But I didn't go through and calculate the pot odds, which at a glance look awfully tempting. You might have to call even though you think you're behind, just on the chance that you're not behind.
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Yeah 78s 89s and (less likely) pocket 5s would scare the $@% out of me. Probably would fold that one.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i kindof go back and forth on this. its really hard to say who of them has you beat or not. but, i still am thinking that you're gonna catch lower overpairs and bluffs with high card flush draws etc more than you're gonna see the 55 or an 8. i'd still push.
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Tenny
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 87
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Unless the TA player has pocket 9's or 10's, has you on AK figures you missed the flop and can bet you off your hand.
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-It seemed like a good idea at the time-
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Grand_MasterB
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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i would say 8 out of ten times your hand is money...raise those bastards back!
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Admerylous
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 108
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This was so hard for me. In the end I reraise all-in.
It depends more so on the read. Is he tricky in the starting hands he will play, or tricky in his betting patterns? Or both?
This, like many things, becomes very read dependant.
I am dying to know the result, regardless.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Dan Harrington says it is often correct to call with a hand as weak as AQ if the BB was the one who raised. It is often a bluff.
In My experience this is almost always a pocket pair above the board. I figured I was looking at a medium pair from the TAgg, and most likely a draw from the BB. Since the BB only had to call $80 The pot was laying great odds for a flush.
My bet looks like just a standard continuation bet after an EP raise.
Given my read, I raised all in.
The TAgg showed AA and the BB QJ of clubs.
The AA held up for a big pot, and I went back into my wallet to start all over.
Although I lost this pot, I think the reraise is the correct play.
Now what if the action were the same and you held two red Jacks?
What about AK of clubs?
I would have probably folded each of these hands, because of the call from the BB. With JJ you could more often be dominated, and with AK, it is possible that a number of your outs are dead.
What do you think?
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 835
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tough one but most of the time i'd say you take it down.
most people will raise you with a higher pp than on board, thinking you have AK etc (since you bet 2/3 pot screams semi-bluff), most of the time you'll be against a flush draw in this case, or a pp below yours and you have to call.
the tricky part about this player was that he didnt re-raise preflop which non-tricky players would likely do.
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eeeee
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 906
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Tough call. If it was $10 buy in, I'd be all in, so $300 needs to be the same, right?
You may have become predictable in your play, and someone else almost always could have a better hand, but just on value you have to play.
EDIT: Oh, I missed the TAg part. 
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i think you did fine. if he had played it aggressive preflop you'd have ended up all-in anyway.
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DoGGz
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by eeeee
Tough call. If it was $10 buy in, I'd be all in, so $300 needs to be the same, right?
You may have become predictable in your play, and someone else almost always could have a better hand, but just on value you have to play.
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Correct, if you are going to play higher then your stakes dictate you still have your play your game
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I would have folded this all day long, no questions asked, no agony. The strength of his bet almost telegraphs AA. I think if he has QQ or JJ he isn't so confident with the raise. Maybe in that case he raises to 100 so he can gather information. I'm just saying if you have QQ your somewhat weary of KK or AA, and your not gonna do what he did unless you thought "Screw it I think I'm ahead and that's that". It seems unlikely he would think that way at these stakes however. We're talking about hundreds of dollars. No, I think he was quite certain he was ahead in this one.
As for rationalizing that you should call because "Most of the time kings are good here", that's not poker to me. Each hand is it's own, and each read is it's own. Whether they win a lot of times or not, they in fact were not good here, and the progression of the hand telegraphed it soundly in my humble opinion.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Wee, I called the AA as the hand to be worried about from the TA player.
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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I raise all in. painfully...but I still raise.
TA is not gong to be playing for implied odds, not to mention screwed up implied odds as $50 is 1/6 of your stack, so even if he calls with a 5 5, the implied odds aren't there.
I put him sitting happy on queens or jacks, trying to push you out of the pot.
Sucks that it ended up being AA, but I have to say no folding here.
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EddieBoy
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corona California
Posts: 125
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You got 2 players in front of you who'v put all their money in the middle, why wouldn't you put one of them on Aces? Also, one of the was labeled as tight-aggressive, I think this is an easy fold.
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Yeahhhh mannnnnn
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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"why wouldn't you put one of them on Aces?"
no preflop reraise. i guess in the end that was a nice play.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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EddieBoy
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03-27-2005, 07:29 AM
Post subject: Re: Who lays this down?
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#23 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corona California
Posts: 125
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Quote:
I am dealt KK in EP. Raise to $25
MP player (Tight Agressive) calls. BB (weak) calls.
The pot is $75 after $3 rake
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Flop is 885 with 2 clubs. I have the K of clubs.
Action is to me.
There's a preflop raise of 25 bucks with two callers...you don't put one of them on an Ace?[/quote]
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Yeahhhh mannnnnn
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Sykedupp
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 527
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he probably puts them on an ace, just not rockets.... an ace loses to his KK... rockets win
-Chris
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Fold Fold Fold
Three more votes for Fold
nope four
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Admerylous
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 108
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sykedupp
he probably puts them on an ace, just not rockets.... an ace loses to his KK... rockets win
-Chris
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Huh? Are you reading his KK with is original flop of AKJ where he folded QQ? 
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pantherhound
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Love me for a season
Posts: 489
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Hi guys, I'm new here but not to the game.
I believe your action was the right one. It we'd have seen this on a WPT final table, someone aggressive like Ivey would have pushed this hand, and that kind of play wins him tournaments. It was just unlucky you ran into some unstandard play with the rockets, you can't account for that. The main thing is you didn't put him on an 8.
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Sykedupp
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03-31-2005, 08:41 PM
Post subject: Re: Who lays this down?
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#28 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 527
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
I am dealt KK in EP. Raise to $25
MP player (Tight Agressive) calls. BB (weak) calls.
The pot is $75 after $3 rake
Flop is 885 with 2 clubs. I have the K of clubs.
I bet $50.
MP Raises $150 to $200
BB calls all in for $80
Action is to me.
There is no way I think a TA player called my EP raise of 5x BB with an 8 or 5. The BB could have anything.
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No, I was reading that.
-Chris
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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The question doesn't seem to be "do I have the best hand?" I think the appropriate question is "what hands is he likely to be holding, what is the best way to extract value from these hands (if it's possible at all)?" If you think he may have an overpair below kings, this may even be an opportunity to slow-play a bit and represent either unimproved overcards or a flush draw. This would seem to be the best way to get all his money, rather than a reraise which could easily slow him down quite a bit. By this, I mean calling his raise, then check-calling the turn and making a callable bet on the river. This would also seem to hedge against the possibility that he does in fact have an 8 (5-5 is incredibly unlikely, since for almost anyone this would be an automatic slow-play on the flop, and A-A seems equally unlikely, even though it's the hand he ended up holding). The concern that he is holding a flush draw may change this plan a bit, but I think that a pair is more likely.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,565
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all in all day. If someone is lucky/weak enough to limp their AA when I have KK and then smooth call... good for them.
People who fold, please come to my table and commence folding every non nut hand to me.
"I put him sitting happy on queens or jacks, trying to push you out of the pot. "
Agree 100 %. His/her AI is brilliant because with AA generally I'd probably think either I had way the best hand, or was already beat, and would only bet enough to push out a draw.
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JackOfClubs
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1
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hes a sucker call
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SavX
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Riddick Blowe
Hi guys, I'm new here but not to the game.
I believe your action was the right one. It we'd have seen this on a WPT final table, someone aggressive like Ivey would have pushed this hand, and that kind of play wins him tournaments. It was just unlucky you ran into some unstandard play with the rockets, you can't account for that. The main thing is you didn't put him on an 8.
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I totally agree 
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