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Wyvver

06-09-2006, 07:48 PM Post subject: when your drawing...

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 125

when you are in an early position, and after the flop you are drawing for a open end straight or a flush, and you have nothing else and are hoping for a free or at least cheap card: what do you usually do to try to get the next card as cheap as possible?

I used to check and hope maybe everyone checks behind me, but this really never works, or nearly never as someone will take a stab at the pot. So recently I began to bet instead, but not a big bet, maybe 2bb.
This seems to work alot more as the chance someone raises is smaller than someone betting the way I see it and it seems much cheaper.

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cardsman1992

06-09-2006, 08:09 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397

Posts: 1,065

I like to bet my OESD and FD at about 1/2 pot. Sometimes you win the pot right there, and other times you build the pot up for when you do hit. I find a lot of check behinds on the turn this way, giving me a free look at the river. In addition, if you bet the turn (even if a blank), sometimes that causes the ones who called the flop bet to fold on the turn.

Of course, a thinking player will hammer my turn check, but there's not a lot of those at $10 and $25....

Operation Grind For Education:

Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR

Renton

06-09-2006, 11:51 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

The best way to play draws is to be in position when you have them. Don't play drawing hands out of position.

Being in position allows you to check behind an take a free card. If you are aggressive with your draw on the flop (betting 1/2 pot as cardsman said) then you will often times get checked to on the turn so you can check behind.

drtofu66

06-10-2006, 04:20 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Would you have bet here? I really thought I was making a good bet here on the button (well, aside from the bad preflop call which I've cut out since this hand. I like me the loose limpy tables, but 2 gap SC rag hands still aren't worth the limp). I guess he was slowplaying a set.

Cryptologic
Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19.08
UTG+1: $13.85
MP1: $20.95
MP2: $10.35
CO: $33.09
Hero: $32.65
SB: $7.76
BB: $22.69

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with 6

UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 4

($1.5, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.9, SB calls, BB raises to $5.1, 3 folds, Hero folds, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $4.2 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $4.2

Renton

06-10-2006, 04:32 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

I play that hand the same, including preflop.

jackvance

06-10-2006, 09:25 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

This is why I don't do that semibluffing with too many people in the pot.. you just end up getting raised by the guy who was either slowplaying his made hand, or another draw, way too often for it to be worthwhile.

Wyvver

06-10-2006, 11:35 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 125

Hm since you mentioned slowplaying I have another question ^^

If you flop a hand that you know is the winning hand and your only concern is to extract as much money as possible from your opponents, how do you slowplay it? (I know you usually cant flop a hand that is 100% the winner...but I mean a hand where you know its very very unlikely someone makes a better hand even if the draw to the river).

When my opponent shows weakness, I will check check and hope to get him to bluff at some point thinking he can pick up the pot right there.
The thing with this is, very often it goes like this:
flop comes, I have the winning hand;
I check, he checks, turn comes.
I check, he checks again, river.

now here is the problem...he obviously has nothing and for some reason he let me check all the way and didnt try to pick up the pot.
Then in the last round of betting, Im usually not sure what I should do.
I know i could check, again hoping to maybe induce a buff, or bet and hope he calls. Usually I cant follow through and I bet in the last round of betting...should I check? It seems 90% of the time in this situation my opponent folds when I bet here, so is checking the most profitable action?
What is more likely, him calling a not to big bet on the last round, or him trying to pick up the pot from someone who checked all the way to the river?

- Don't Panic -

Pelion

06-10-2006, 11:41 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Well thats read dependent. I think most people will just check the river after theyve checked the flop and turn. This is the main reason slowplaying sucks almost all of the time. Usually just bet and hope they have something to call you with.

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jackvance

06-10-2006, 11:48 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyvver

If he's a calling station, or people are generally playing back at me, I might play it normal or even overplay it to make it look like a bluff. But this usually isn't the case.

So if I assume they have nothing to speak of, I usually check the flop and hope they improve. Then it's basically about my gut feeling if he's gonna take a stab at the pot. If I think he might, I'll check it through. If I don't think he will, I bet like 2/3 pot. If he folds, damn, but fine, whatever.

Maybe there was simply no possible way to extract value since he really didn't have anything, or he already suspected you to have a good hand.. happens.. I think it's important to simply not get frustrated there..

Another thing of note.. if you usually play aggressive, it's nice to on a rare occassion check it down to the river. If your opp was paying attention, he'll think you really have nothing. So if he also really has nothing, he might take a stab at the pot even if he normally never does so. I've had good success mixing this line in now and then.

Quote:

him calling a not to big bet on the last round, or him trying to pick up the pot from someone who checked all the way to the river?

Him calling a not too big bet. You should always take that line unless you have a read (or a hunch) that he'll take a stab at the pot. But I wouldn't overbet the pot all of a sudden.. that's the classic donk "my slowplay failed and I still want to get paid" line. A month or so back I called these down on occassion for educational purposes, and 90% of the time it was either a flopped monster, or one caught along the way. But think about it, why would anyone take a stab at the pot after it was checked down to the river? It makes no sense. So you have to bet. It only works, in my experience, if you've been rather aggro lately.. then you might suddenly see a potsize bluff. But it's ultimately rare. (I also think it's a psychological thing, since it would make no sense as an actual play.. they want the satisfaction to bluff out the aggro guy or something..)

cardsman1992

06-10-2006, 04:11 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397

Posts: 1,065

Quote:

Originally Posted by drtofu66

UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 4

Postflop is fine. Not only do you build a pot if your draw hits, his raise tells you that you are currently behind.

Operation Grind For Education:

Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR

cardsman1992

06-10-2006, 04:22 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397

Posts: 1,065

Checking monsters until the river....

I usually put a 1/2 pot or so bet on the river. If they fold, they weren't going to pay you anyway and you don't have to show your cards. If they call, great.

Operation Grind For Education:

Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR

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