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Humphrind

06-01-2004, 10:33 PM Post subject: when to see rags

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

OK, I'm wondering what your opinions are on seeing the flop with a crappy hand. I'll give you a situation.

You are playing early in a tournament. delt 72o with big blind. (I didn't choose 5-2 on purpose, Blackstar) The blinds are 20/40 (pretty small still) and the bet gets raised to 80 (minimum raise) with 6 people calling. Would you call or fold?

I can see someone saying that the pot odds justify the call and you are already invested, but you have a 72o. Isn't that wasting 40? And just to clarify, I'm not talking about bluffing. You can bluff any hand, I'm just refering to legitimate betting.

I would fold, but maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. I guess I'm looking for a thread on pot odds, justifying calling and being invested in the pot.

Any takers?

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fishstick

06-01-2004, 10:55 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

i think it depends on your tourney approach (and i'm talking SNG, not multi).

if you favor an "extremely tight until there's only 5 or 6 left" approach - you'll probably fold anything not premium, even from the BB.

if you favor a "looser when the blinds are cheap" approach - you obviously have a lot more to play.

these days, i'm taking a "a little looser when the blinds are 10/15 and 15/30 because it doesn't cost much to speculate, but still being very careful and protecting my stack" approach. e.g. in your example, i might call the raise from the BB with something like Q9s.

i would fold something like 72o in the BB to any raise.

now rippy on the other hand - he would definitely go all-in.

heatman

06-01-2004, 10:59 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 312

I'd fold. With six callers I'd bet a pair of 7s or 2s on the flop is not a staying hand. That means you can only hope for two pair or a matching pair on the flop to make three of a kind. Probability of flopping two pair is about 2%, of flopping three of a kind is 1.3%. So you end up with a playable hand 3.3% of the time. This gives you odds of approximately 32:1. You need 32X40 to make the call, or 1280 in the pot to stay. Thats 16 callers, which ain't gonna happen.

Of course, it could happen that you flop a straight draw, say 568. I'm not exactly of the probability of that occurring, but I think its clsoe to 1.3% (same as a straight hitting for suited connector). That would give you cumulative odds of 4.6% or about 19:1 odds of having something to play.

"Limit poker is a science, but no-limit is an art..."

Fnord

06-01-2004, 11:07 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

72o, fold and twice on thursdays.

T8s, now we're talking about a raggy hand that might have good enough (implied) pot odds here. Although the fold button is still looking attractive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

koolmoe

06-02-2004, 12:27 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Besides the obvious, one of the things I don't like about playing a hand like 72o is that the implied odds are not there. Most good flops for you would necessarily contain your rags, giving little room for a card that helps your opponents. Unless someone is super aggressive with overcards or slowplaying a big pocket pair, you won't see much action with a flop like 972. Plus, if I'm on a big PP and someone calls my decent-sized bet on the flop with rags on the board, I'm worried they've made their set, especially with the smallest possible PFR.

You might see action from a flush draw or straight draw, but then the chances of losing with your 7's up or trips increases. You would need to protect your hand by making a 1/2 to pot sized raise, in which case your opponents would be correct to fold. You'd end up playing for the 12 bets in the original pot. Not bad, but not enough to justify playing 72o, either.

Les_Worm

06-02-2004, 03:03 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: MI

Posts: 1,697

Fold it without a second thought.

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You

crazyeddie

06-02-2004, 03:24 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2004

Location: VA

Posts: 97

You can see rags:

1. Calling minimum raise with less than 3 callers and you are last or near last to act.
2. You flop your perfect two-pair, three of a kind, or magic straight (not flush). (Even then you might be up against better two pair or three of a kind with better kicker. Poetic justice.)
3. Against tick-tight player heads up when you are in blinds (because you can more confidently put him on overcards if flop misses, possibly buy pot).

In other words, never see rags. Think about it this way-- Crappy players see rags:

1. Because they think it is a 'clever' play
2. They like to gamble
3. Getting lucky short term is more enjoyable for them than winning small amounts over time.
4. They are overly protective of their blinds
5. They get "a feeling" that their cards are going to come.
6. They are impatient.
7. They lack discipline.

Which reason from the "Crappy" list do you use to justify it?

evilevilmatt

06-02-2004, 05:31 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Binghamton,NY

Posts: 112

Fold it like a fresh newspaper.
Never throw throw good money in the pot with bad cards.

Now with more Evil and a side of Hatred

Fnord

06-02-2004, 06:08 PM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilevilmatt

Fold it like a fresh newspaper.
Never throw throw good money in the pot with bad cards.

Well.... almost.... never....

- All your blinds are belong to me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

evilevilmatt

06-05-2004, 12:07 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Binghamton,NY

Posts: 112

Guess thats why i cant bluff very well, allways feels like i'm throwing away money. That phrase runs through my mind whenever i start thinking about throwing a bluff.

Maybe I'll go online to a play money room and just keep doing the all-in move until I bust. Maybe that'll cure what ails me.

Now with more Evil and a side of Hatred

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