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| Vi-Zer0Skill |
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“Donk betting” on the flop, or leading into the preflop aggressor, is a powerful play that many players aren’t using often enough. It is a useful alternative to only check/calling or check/raising the preflop aggressor. Particularly at lower limits, where 99% of your opponents are weak/average hold’em players, this play will earn you extra bets with your monster and marginal hands. If you lead into the preflop aggressor, one of three things will happen. 1). He will fold, and you will win the pot on the flop uncontested. A fine result; the small pots add up! 2). He will call. This almost always means that your opponent doesn’t have a very strong hand; he is often drawing or holding a weak hand that can’t stand the pressure of another bet. This is a great time to fire a second bet on a blank/scary turn with a marginal hand like middle pair or a gutshot. 3). He will raise. This is a good result if you have a nice draw or a very strong hand, like a set. You can make a large 3bet and get most of your money in on the flop you’re your 3bet range (strong hands/good draws)has the most equity. Donk betting with marginal hands works best when the action is heads up, since you are trying to win the pot as soon as possible and playing against multiple hands makes it less likely you will win the pot on the flop. It also works well in 3 way limped pots when you are in the blinds (particularly the big blind, as you get to see what the small blind thinks about the flop). Unless your opponent is a total nit, don’t donk bet with air. If you are called, you don’t have less outs to improve to an often deceptive strong hand like a gutshot or middle pair. More importantly, if you are often donk betting with air you will end up donk betting a lot. Even the crappy regulars will realize this, and will raise your donk bets lightly. And once that happens, all that your donk bets are accomplishing is making that pot your opponent takes away from you a little larger. There are a few conditions under which donk betting is sometimes not the most profitable play: 1). When you are holding a hand like TPGK or an 8-9 out draw. Without a specific note/read, these hands are better off check/calling the flop and making a decision on the turn. If you know your opponent is very loose and aggressive with flop raises (or when he begins to adjust to your flop donk betting by raising a wider range), then these hands become as good as sets/better draws to 3bet with. 2). When your opponent c-bets a lot. For those who use the HUD stats, I would guess a c-bet percentage over 80% is more profitable to exploit by floating/check raising than donk betting is. (Title edited per bigpsenda's advice. See below for explanation) |
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| biondino |
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| A-fucking-men - great post. I use donk betting a fair amount, for a number of reasons, and it's a powerful tool, most obviously against aggressive opponents who don't expect it. They may put you on strength or weakness, but suddenly they're having to react to you and their action on the flop can tell you a great deal. It also makes the check/raise on the turn a devastating option. | ||
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| shysti |
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Yep what biondino said lol, I use donk betting a lot on flops that I know couldn't have helped my opponent, had I checked he surely would have bluffed and I would have to fold. A great alternative. |
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My Poker Blog:http://shystitalkspoker.wordpress.com/
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| shysti |
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Yep what biondino said lol, I use donk betting a lot on flops that I know couldn't have helped my opponent, had I checked he surely would have bluffed and I would have to fold. A great alternative. |
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My Poker Blog:http://shystitalkspoker.wordpress.com/
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| ThomasDeNorges |
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I have to try this. Thx for the post ! |
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| thizzSantaCruz |
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| great post. i started one similar to this a while ago and have been trying to incorporate it into my game recently. Only problem is I haven't really been playing much lately. I hope to change that soon. | ||
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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| mixchange |
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| I'm still wondering why everyone is calling it donk betting | ||
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| bigspenda73 |
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I actually discovered leading in PLO. I made a similar "donk-bet" post over in another forum and a higher-stakes player told me that I would become a much better player the mintue I starting realizing I was "leading" and not "donk-betting". It's funny that it's just semantics, but he was totally right, leading is a necessary form of balance and one that should be used in many of the situation as described by OP. It's a form of exploitation too, you have to first determine your opponents HU cbetting tendencies, but after you do you can decide if it's better to c/c, c/r, or lead at the pot. BTW, ZeroSkill, nice posts as usual. |
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| Vi-Zer0Skill |
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thx for the props guys. spenda, i will go ahead and change the title of this thread to "When to Lead into the Preflop Aggressor". I can't remember viewing the term "donk bet" in a negative light, but it may be discouraging less experienced players from wanting to try it. If nothing else, it couldn't hurt to change it (it's only semantics  )!
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| mixchange |
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I'm also shocked why it seems like a breakthrough not to 'check to the raiser'? leading is useful for a crapload of reasons, especially when you hit sets for pot building. I love hitting a set when calling a 3 bet and leading and seeing a re-raise. Call and check bomb the turn, the pot will be so big they are committed and you get their stack. yay. |
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| bigspenda73 |
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| I think for players rooted in limit hold'em leading just really wasn't a part of the game b/c villains were cbetting about 95% of the time in those games so c/r'ing became more profitable, maybe it spilled over when everyone went to NL. | ||
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| Chopper |
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i have a question about point #3... i like leading into pf aggressors, as a form of balance, too. it also sets up leading with sets, overpairs, and combos where bet sizing is key to gaining a villains entire stack. however, (this is rare at lower levels i know) what do you do when you find a villain that knows to take away your drawing odds if/when he raises your "lead?" at that point, you have no pot odds to continue unless you have a combo. do you typically bail on your flush/str8 only draw? or are you playing off of implied odds since you are going to get committed fairly quickly? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Vi-Zer0Skill |
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I need to elaborate a little on what i was writing in my OP about what hands to donk bet with, and what hands you are better of check/calling with. Hands that are good to lead the flop into the PF AGG with 1). middle pair + bottom pair hands, and gutshots. When you lead the flop, you do it mostly with the hope that you will win the pot uncontested. But if your bet is called, you have the benefit of having a few outs to improve and win a bigger pot. And it's usually easy to let go of the hand if raised. 2). sets, top two pair, straights, flushes, and draws with 12 or more outs*. When you lead the flop in this instance, you are doing so with the hopes of having your bet raised so you can quickly build the pot and hopefully get all of your money into the middle. * -nut flush draws when you are holding the Ace of that suit -pair and straight/flush draws -open ended straight draw + flush draw -open ended straight flush draw 3). As your opponents' level of aggression increases, you can start to bet with the intention of getting it all in on the flop with hands like weaker two pairs, TPTK, flush draws/nut straight draws, weaker top pair hands, etc. Without specific information on an opponent or a very unique board texture, i almost never want to get it all in on the flop with less than top two pair or a very nice draw. I like check/calling the flop with hands like top pair and 9 out draws (flush and straight draws) to start, and deciding what i want to do on the turn. This helps to give the range of hands you actually check the flop to the PF AGG strong enough that he can't c-bet 100% of the time and expect to massively profit. And it helps keep pots smaller when you are OOP without more information/cards to make a decision with. |
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