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When to lay down that set...

  
 
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thirteen
Old 11-04-2005, 01:22 PM     Post subject: When to lay down that set... #1 (permalink)  
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thirteen
I've had 3 interesting and very similar experiences with holding a set and facing a straight. I'd like some advice regarding this situation.

Sorry I don't have the hand histories but here is very brief synopsis.

1) I raise preflop with JJ, get one caller and 2 of us go to the flop. Flop is 678 rainbow. I bet 3/4 of the pot, get a quick call. J comes on the turn. I bet 3/4 pot, get raised. I call. 9 comes on the river. I check Opponent bets half the pot.

2)I limp with 66, 4 people see the flop. Flop is 4TK rainbow. I check, opponents check. Turn is a 6. I bet the pot, and one opponent calls. River is a 9. I bet the pot opponent raises all in (he has me covered by only a little bit). He either slow played a set or has the QJ. I decide he's bluffing a missed straight.

3)I limp with 77, 4 people go to the flop. Flop comes 457 rainbow. One person bets half the pot. I raise it to pot sized and get one caller (original better folds). Turn comes 6. I check, opponent checks. River is a 9. I bet opponent raises.

Results below in white

1)I call. I win with trip jacks over trip 8s
2)I call. Opponent had QJ for the rivered straight
3)I call. Opponent had 68 for a flopped straight.


If you read the results you see that I couldn't lay down the trips. Based on my 3 hands, seems like I made some hugely -EV by not folding the set(in fact it was pretty donktastic to make the call), especially in example 1 and 2 where there are 4 cards to the straight.

Thoughts?
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jstrope
Old 11-04-2005, 02:42 PM #2 (permalink)  

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jstrope
To me, it mostly depends on preflop action. If I hit a set with limpers against me and there's a 4 straight on the board, I'm willing to dump it. However, if someone is calling raises pre-flop and there's a rag 3- or4- straight on the board, I don't even consider it. I'll pay off someone calling preflop raises with junk and catching a straight. Conversely, this I why I'll call a preflop raise with 56 before calling a preflop raise with AT or KQ.

Post-flop, I'll try to get a read if someone's on a draw. If someone is calling pot sized bets on each street with a possible OESD on the board and a card comes to complete, I'll be wary of the straight but that doesn't mean I'm going to lay down a set. If someone is calling pot-sized bets with a possible gutshot, I'll pay them off if they hit.

Bottom line is I only lay down a set when I'm 90% positive op hit a reasonable straight based on their actions through the ENTIRE hand.
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r8ed
Old 11-04-2005, 03:46 PM #3 (permalink)  
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r8ed
[quote="jstrope"]To me, it mostly depends on preflop action.quote]
Yup. I figured you won pot 1 because the preflop raise.

When you limp, you have to consider others will limp almost anything. Hand 2 is a tough play, he could have two pair and trying to protect against the str8 as well. Hand 3 I try for the cheap showdown by check/calling if the bet isn't too high.
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Old 11-04-2005, 05:22 PM #4 (permalink)  
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i agree with the call with #1

every other situation i lay it down...
 
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siknd
Old 11-04-2005, 05:29 PM #5 (permalink)  
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siknd
for case #2, i wouldnt call it 'rivering a straight' in a negative sense. he made a nearly correct draw. consider that pf was limped, and the flop checked. calling a pot sized bet on the turn at 2:1 isnt a terrible play considering the implied odds which he certainly got on the river.
'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
 
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bencathers
Old 11-04-2005, 05:31 PM #6 (permalink)  
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bencathers
When scare cards hit, why not check the river? It almost seems like old saying of "the only ones who call or raise are the ones who beat you"...

Also, it seems you called based on reads and also being pot committed... no bets on the river (unless these are blocking bets) may make the decision easier.

With that, I like hand #1 and hand #3 I fold (any 4 or 8 beats you and both of those are staying in on the flop) and #2 is a tough call... but call me tight I'm probably checking the river and and basing my actions on the opponent
Dealer: bencathers has two pair, Aces and Deuces
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Miffed22001
Old 11-04-2005, 05:36 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 ok before i look at the results
1. Call i think
2. Fold im beat. two pair might make this mover but i doubt it
3. fold beaten on flop i think with flopped straight

after...
1. hell yeah
2. hell yeah
3. hell yeah

Probably the most difficult thing to do in poker, lay down a set imo even more difficult than AA as an overpair.
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thirteen
Old 11-04-2005, 05:38 PM #8 (permalink)  
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thirteen
What everyone is saying is pretty much inline with the conclusion I came to while thinking about the hands on the way to work....

If I don't raise preflop, I likely need to give credit when someone reps a straight because they could have limped any two. I should try to see a cheap showdown or consider tossing it.

The other conclusion I've come to is that my opponents know I'll take a decent hand like trips or two pair to the felt. So their implied odds of drawing are huge. If i've made my hand I've shown that I'm unlikely to dump it on the river. So they were drawing into me anticipating getting paid off.


Miffed, good job... wish i had picked up on the flopped straight in the third one. The only one of these three hand where I felt i was good on the river was hand 1 with the trip jacks. I had a bad feeling in the others and I just could not lay down the set. Wish i had.
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