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benny999
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04-30-2006, 02:49 AM
Post subject: When to lay down AA on an uncoordinated board??
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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What would you do with no reads, and more important, when (if) would you fold?
I see I shoulda reraised a little more pre flop, maybe bet more on the flop, and maybe folded to his 4-bet on the flop, but is it possible to lose less on this hand?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($10.45)
MP ($23.65)
Button ($35.85)
SB ($24.75)
Hero ($23.90)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , A . SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, Button raises to $1.2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.75, Button calls $1.80.
Flop: ($6.10) 5, 4 , Q (2 players)
(converter didn't work here) Hero bets $3 Button raises to $7 Hero raises to $13 Button moves all-in Hero  calls $5
Results: Button has a set (55)
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Yeah this is always hard. I don't think you really made any mistakes here, except you could have reraised more preflop, but whatever, or bet a bit more on the flop. But lately, without a read, I've been trying to keep these sorts of pots - overpair, TPTK - to a minimum. You probably should always go broke here.. but in my experience, most 10NL and 20NL players will not go so aggressive without having the "obvious things" (overpair after you reraise hard is one) beat. The only thing you're beating here really, is KK.. any other hand that goes this aggressive is a set.
When you 3-bet, you're basically going all-in. And when you call that $7, the pot gets out of control.. $20.. almost pot committing you. If your stack were higher, you could call the flop, fire a 1/4-1/3 bet on the turn and fold to a raise, but here that would pot commit you. So either you give him the benefit of the doubt and fold, because once you even call, your stack is pretty much going in the middle.
This is a so-called "pressure point" your opp put on you. Fold or you're going all-in. The mood I'm in now, I'd probably fold.. which might very well not be the +EV decision.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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without reads its very hard to tell if he has AQ or a set
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Yeah - it's just one of those things. His re-raise does indicate strength, but unless you have reads on him you can't just assume he's got a set. KK and AQ play this way - if he's an aware player, and you haven't been lagging it up (I assume he also has no reads) he should have already put you on JJ+ and AK after your re-raise, so if he has AQ he beats AK and JJ but lose to QQ, KK and AA; this would maybe make him slow down and call rather than re-raise. A set, on the other hand, is ahead of all but QQ (and he could well have QQ the way he's played it) so his aggression here is a big warning light.
However, this is (I assume?) 25NL and you simply can't give your opponents too much credit. Use this hand to make notes on the villain and add it to your memory bank of experience.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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The thing is, AQ does not play like this. Even if he's a donk, he's not going to reraise a mere TPTK after you went over his bet preflop. They're way too scared to do that. Sure, he'll call an all-in with his TPTK, but a situation where he shows aggression all by himself indicates something bad imho.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I would nearly say never fold AA at 25NL. Without a solid read anyway.
The hand you posted is fine.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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Yea, this was a tough hand to fold. I wanted to keep this pot smallI and make some $ from a worse pair or lose the min to a set. I just didn't anticipate the pressure point thing, and between folding to a (basically) min raise or to go all in, I pushed it...looking back, I dunno the point of not going all in on the 3rd bet. I mean AQ/KK were possible, although true that AQ typically just calls the flop, and I really wanted that pot, but like Jackvance wrote, logic says most player at 25nl don't get so aggressive with hands I beat.
I've had a string of these sort of no-reads hands lately because I was firing up 4 windows right off the bat on Party to whore the bonus quicker, and it seems like the $25 players are generally worse than on pokerstars. I won a decent amount, but I bet I couldve won more (at least per hand not sure about per hour) starting with 1-2 to get some reads and find the weak players then open up # 3 and 4.
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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I don't know about you guys, but for me it's EASIER to fold AA in an uncoordinated board, than it is it to fold in a coordinated board.
Sets are hidden better this way, I think.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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coordinated board = maybe semi-bluff?? = harder laydown
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sunfunbunch
I don't know about you guys, but for me it's EASIER to fold AA in an uncoordinated board, than it is it to fold in a coordinated board.
Sets are hidden better this way, I think.
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I agree with both of you, but when would you lay down in this hand, after the min raise? Or else, what would you do here? By building the pot to about 25 BB pre flop, then betting 1/2 pot on the flop and getting min-raised, I got caught in a pressure point.
I could fold easier if he called my flop then raised my turn bet or if I check/raised then he 3-bets on the flop. Makes me think...does anyone do a check/raise with AA on an uncoordinated board with one face card to define a hand better?
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I think that once you are raised on the flop, you are probably either up against good hands you have dominated like TPTK/TPGK or JJ/TT or you are up against a set. By reraising, you are letting the hands you beat know they are beat, and good players will often fold. Your reraise also pot commits you, so the hands that have you crushed (the sets), are going to push and you will have to call. I really think calling the flop raise here is the right call. You can reevaluate on the turn, and will have a chance to get away from your hand when beat.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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For just another thing to think about:
Suppose your opponent would only raise the flop with TPTK or better. In this case, the only possible reasonable hands for your opponent are AQ, QQ, 55, and 44. Since you have 2 of the Aces, there are only 6 combinations for AQ, and there are 9 combination total for the 3 set hands. If the assumption about the opponent were correct, you are behind 60% of the time here.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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It's not that easy Xanadu. Say you call, then the pot is $20 and your stack is $14 or so. Say your opp bets $5 on the turn after you call.. are you going to fold here? Seems rather pathetic no? $5 into $30, you only have to call for 16.7%. If you weren't going to call this, then why call on the flop in the first place? And if you call.. then by the river the pot is $30 and you have $9 left in your stack. Are you gonna be folding here?
I hope you see how you can easily get dragged into putting your stack on the line once you pass a pressure point. It would seem rather donkish to fold lower bets on such a big pot, but in essence this means your stack is going in.
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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Playing out of position sucks, even when it's AA 
I tend to lose big pots and win small ones when I get some "big cards" in EP.
I think your mistake was reraising SO small when the button raised.
I'm making this $4 preflop instead of 2.75.
I then go into check call mode with this uncoordinated board.
If he checks the flop, then I'll lead the turn.
Playing out of position REALLY sucks!
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