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when good tables go bad

  
 
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daven
Old 09-09-2008, 07:56 AM     Post subject: when good tables go bad #1 (permalink)  
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 My first ever how-to guide...

Leave the table dumbarse - a brief guide to table un-selection at micro-stakes.

Playing poker is about making money from the players you are playing against. It's about doing everything possible to maximise your edge in the game. There are loads of ways to do this - being better than the players you're sitting with is a good start...

Something that is often emphasised is the importance of good table and seat selection - these articles/threads discuss this at length.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/essays_...selection.html
http://poker-strategy.flopturnriver....-Selection.php
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...le%20selection
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...le%20selection

How important this is depends a lot on your style of play, but it is always important. You can win from most seats of most tables, but poker is about maximising your edge/advantage. What is often overlooked is that identifying a good time to leave a table is equally as important as good table selection in the first place, maybe even more so.

When you encounter any of the following, it's time to go. You're playing micro-stakes, you don't have to put up with this shit!

sitting to your left are:
* players who know how to 3-bet
* players who defend their blinds
* loose players/maniacs

Sitting to your right are:
* short-stacks
* blind stealers

Other reasons to leave include:
* you're deepstacked, covered by a couple of good players, and you're not familiar or comfortable with playing deep.
* The table is short-handed, this may be ok if you're single tabling, but it normally isn't. This is for two reasons:
1) you probably suck heads up
2) even if you have an edge at this particular table, you will end up paying too much attention to this one table and this reduces the attention you are paying to the other tables. Small increase in edge on one table + small decrease in edge on multiple tables = overall decrease in edge.
* the reason you chose the table in the first place, whatever that was, no longer applies - and you can't find a new reason to be there.
* you are tired, drunk, upset, suffering any form of tilt, aware that you're not playing your a-game, etc...

at some point you will have to learn to deal with all of these things (especially playing drunk), but not now...
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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settecba
Old 09-09-2008, 08:33 AM #2 (permalink)  
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great post...

i try to practice this everytime, though i think i should pay even more attention to this...

just one question:
i feel very uncomfortable with a maniac to my left, but is the correct action to leave the table? why not really tighten up and wait for a monster to get his stack?

that is just a thought, and i would like to know what you think about this situation...
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bode
Old 09-09-2008, 10:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 good post. it sucks jumping around tables, but its well worth it for your winrate if you take the time to table/seat select well.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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bjsaust
Old 09-09-2008, 11:03 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Nice post indeed.

Its a good practise to scan your tables every 10 mins or so. Sometimes you dont even notice that a good table has turned bad.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Muzzard
Old 09-09-2008, 11:12 AM #5 (permalink)  
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at FR I just fire up 20 and play until I'm ready to stop, only switching tables when they get to less than 7players.

I know this is bad! lol
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bigstock2001
Old 09-09-2008, 11:23 AM #6 (permalink)  
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I agree with the post for the most part, However i also feel it is very important to be able to adjust your style to the type of players, Even though maniacs to your left is not where you want them. You have two choices at this point and that is one leave or two play tight. I think the second choice will hurt you in the long run becouse it makes you very predictable. Not to mention you can't play looser against the tighter table with out getting cought up in a hand with the maniac. now if the maniac is on your right it would change everything and allow you to adjust your stlye to the maniac and still steal agains the tighter players.
Imo

Don
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Chopper
Old 09-09-2008, 01:16 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by settecba
just one question:
i feel very uncomfortable with a maniac to my left, but is the correct action to leave the table? why not really tighten up and wait for a monster to get his stack?
because he will fuck with you while you wait, increasing your variance AND disallowing you to capitalize on the rest of the table while you slow play a hand you shouldn't only to give him more free cards to punish you with since you decided to c/r TP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstock2001
However i also feel it is very important to be able to adjust your style to the type of players,
true. but, at microstakes, the greatest convenience to playing online is that we do NOT have to do this if we practice table selection well.....and, per this article, know when to leave. its not like we have to drive 30 minutes down the road to the next casino. we just click our mouse two or three times, and, presto, we are on a completely different table.....one that probably presents an even bigger edge over the competition.

hence, THIS...
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenOUT
2) even if you have an edge at this particular table, you will end up paying too much attention to this one table and this reduces the attention you are paying to the other tables. Small increase in edge on one table + small decrease in edge on multiple tables = overall decrease in edge.
-cheers, daven....good post.

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Robb
Old 09-09-2008, 03:03 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
Nice post indeed.

Its a good practise to scan your tables every 10 mins or so. Sometimes you dont even notice that a good table has turned bad.
+1
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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jolub
Old 09-10-2008, 05:50 PM #9 (permalink)  
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If your not happy with a table in a ring game leave it. There are always other tables.
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Muzzard
Old 09-10-2008, 05:55 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jolub
If your not happy with a table in a ring game leave it. There are always other tables.
Very insightful
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Chopper
Old 09-10-2008, 06:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
If your not happy with a table in a ring game leave it. There are always other tables.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:31 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Why does no one talk about sitting down by yourself at a new table?

When all the other tables are full, the fish gravitate to the tables that are available to start playing NOW goddamn it because I have work in 12 hours.
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oskar
Old 09-10-2008, 08:18 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Why does no one talk about sitting down by yourself at a new table?
That's what I do most actually. I sit down at 4 empty tables and wait until they come running in.
If there are no loose games available I found this to be the absolute best thing to do. The vast majority of them have absolutely no clue how to play HU + you gradually get to know the players as they come in.
Also it gives me my desired amount of action without having to invest in a second screen.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:31 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by oskar
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Why does no one talk about sitting down by yourself at a new table?
That's what I do most actually. I sit down at 4 empty tables and wait until they come running in.
If there are no loose games available I found this to be the absolute best thing to do. The vast majority of them have absolutely no clue how to play HU + you gradually get to know the players as they come in.
Also it gives me my desired amount of action without having to invest in a second screen.
I can't play 4 tables HU, I'm up to 2 tables HU max :shock:
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oskar
Old 09-10-2008, 08:41 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Usually you're just HU for a couple of minutes, and not on all tables simultaneously, so it's doable.
It also works well for my aggression level. I really have to fight myself to play less aggressive when I need to. Full ring is my worst game.
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badgers
Old 09-10-2008, 09:57 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Great post but I have a couple of differen rules/ideas.

Shortstackers to the right aren't that big of a deal for me. You can gtfo a lot when they open a pot and you know where they are. Also with reads you can actually re-steal a lot and turn it into a good situation.

Shortstackers to the left is more of a problem to me, especially if your standard open is 4BBs or more or if you're planning on playing really loose. If either of these are true then it's not hard for the SSers to make quite a bit off you without even realising it playing a fairly braindead shove good hands strategy. I would far rather have a SSer to my right than to my left, although I guess he standard edge you have on the player to your right is diminished somewhat if it's a SSer instead of a fullstacker so ideally you'd rather they were on the other side of the table/ in a grease fire.

While it is a pain in the arse to have a maniac on your left, I would rather have him there than somebody half decent.

With the issue about the table going shorthanded a lot of regs are really stupid. I lose count of thte number of times a good table breaks because a couple of people leave and yet half decent regs don't want to play shorthanded despite fsh being at the table. It irritates me a lot, although sometimes I get to play HU vs. retards so that makes up for it somewhat.

That said I completely agree with the concept and one of the things I am trying to do at the moment is constantly table select regardless of the number of tables I have running. I've been queueing on waiting lists/ starting tables and then leaving what I consider my least profitable table. I think it's really helping my winrate. It's a no-brainer, I would rather play fish and donators than regs.
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