www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

When to fold QQQ?

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

floyd_gehrig

01-20-2008, 09:50 AM Post subject: When to fold QQQ?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 17

Any thoughts on my play? My starting hand was QQ and the flop comes up with [ Kd, 5d, Qc ]. I had hit a Queen set, and I thought the K was perfect to trap someone with a KK pair.

I make a small bet (2BB) to test the waters.

The main villain (VP$IP 41.67, AF 2) raises 4BB against me and I put him on a KK pair. I re-raise 6BB to extract more chips (was this correct?), and the villain calls.

Turn comes in K.

I raise 6BB to determine where I stand.

Villain raises 12BB against me and so I fold, assuming he had a King set. I asked him afterward what he had and he replied pocket aces. If so I assumed he had put me on a QQ pair, which would explain his aggression, and I had just walked away from a potentially lucrative pot. Of course he could be lying about having AA.

Was this a correct play? What could I do to improve? Was I being overly conservative? Thanks.

----

$10 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, January 19, 00:45:06 ET 2008
Table Table 129284 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: LicherSports ( $1.90 USD )
Seat 3: TRIFIRO ( $7.32 USD )
Seat 4: TanieD ( $12.23 USD )
Seat 5: monkeydog854 ( $7.69 USD )
Seat 6: SAVANT85 ( $14.68 USD )
Seat 7: DerEismann80 ( $12.44 USD )
Seat 9: bertace ( $2.55 USD )
Seat 10: Gugarus ( $4.95 USD )
Seat 2: floyd_gehrig ( $9.90 USD )
Seat 8: griboedoff22 ( $2.36 USD )
Gugarus posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
LicherSports posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to floyd_gehrig [ Qd Qs ]
floyd_gehrig raises [$0.20 USD]
TRIFIRO calls [$0.20 USD]
TanieD folds.
monkeydog854 folds.
SAVANT85 folds.
DerEismann80 folds.
griboedoff22 folds.
bertace folds.
Gugarus folds.
LicherSports calls [$0.10 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kd, 5d, Qc ]
LicherSports checks.
floyd_gehrig bets [$0.20 USD]
TRIFIRO raises [$0.40 USD]
LicherSports folds.
floyd_gehrig raises [$0.60 USD]
TRIFIRO calls [$0.40 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
floyd_gehrig bets [$0.60 USD]
TRIFIRO raises [$1.20 USD]
floyd_gehrig folds.
TRIFIRO does not show cards.
TRIFIRO wins $3.88 USD

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

Muzzard

01-20-2008, 10:31 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

GET your money all in on the turn. Only two hands beat you, KK and KQ, both are unlikely. 3-bet the turn and calla push, or get it all in on the river

badgers

01-20-2008, 10:31 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Spewing

Posts: 3,372

There are a few issues I have with this hand...

Preflop - Raise to .40c. This helps to build a pot and stops you playing vs. multiple opponents. Make 4bbs your standard raise, add 1BB for every limper. That might sound excessive, but it stops you giving huge odds to the table - ie. BB got 5.5:1 on his call...

Flop - Bet at least 0.40c. This is around 2/3s pot and helps to build a nice pot for you to win. As played I would raise his silly minraise to around $1.20-$1.50. Again this helps to build a pot, and protects your hand from diamond draws.

Turn - This is really awul... sorry. At 10nl I would just bet pot because they love to call. As played there is absolutely no way you can fold. Your comment that you thoiught he may have a king set baffles me. Do you mean you think he might have had a hand like AK? In which case you have completely misread the board because he would have trips and you would have a full house! There are two hands that beat you, KQ and QQ. Both of these are extremely unlikely. This should have been shoved in while you danced around the room singing about how glorious money is and what you're going to spend his stack on...

3k post - Return of the blog!

biondino

01-20-2008, 10:42 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

You know you're only behind KK, K5 and KQ, don't you? And KK is unlikely because he didn't 3bet pre-flop (and while we're at it don't minraise ever pre-flop, especially not with a monster), K5 is unlikely because it's a crappy hand, and KQis unlikely because you hold two queens.

How you should have played this hand. Raise to $0.50 pre-flop. Let's assume Trifiro does hold a king, it doesn't really matter what his kicker is, and he calls you.

On the flop, which will be $1.15 (depending on whether the BB comes along - let's assume he doesn't, which would be a good thing btw, because top pair type hands you want isolation vs one opponent, another benefit of raising properly pre-flop), you find yourself with the 2nd nuts, but there is an annoying flush draw. Bet properly - you might take it down, you might get a bad call from a flush draw, or - best case scenario - you might get a call from Kx.

So you bet $0.90, and the villain calls. Fantastic - he either has Kx, a flush draw, 55 or is donking along with some hand you're miles ahead of. The turn is actually the perfect card for you. Kx now thinks he has the nuts, and you are now protected against a rivered flush because you have a full house. Yes, you are behind KQ, K5 and KK, but these are very unlikely holdings. You want his stack here, and if he has a king, you're getting it.

The pot is $3, and villain has $6 behind (you cover him). If he has a king, it almost doesn't matter what you do here AS LONG AS YOU BET. But let's value bet - $2 say. If he has only a flush draw, he might be tempted to call or even push, though his implied odds aren't great (and with the board paired, it would be a big mistake - but he might not realise this); if he has a king, he's definitely calling or raising.

On the river, you put him all in. The only card you fear is the case king, but assuming he doesn't one-out you, you're gold. Of course, there is the chance that he'll have raised you on the flop or the turn (as he did in the real hand), in which case you're all in anyway.

So, to conclude. Very occasionally - maybe 10% of the time - you will lose this pot to KK, KQ or K5. The rest of the time, you stack the villain. This is one of the single best scenarios imaginable in poker. And you folded. Please tell us it was a mistake, and you didn't realise you had a full house on the turn, and you were only seeing KKK vs QQQ. Because mistakes are fine, we all make them. But if you think this was the right play, you're very, very wrong.

biondino

01-20-2008, 10:43 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

(sorry, as you can probably tell I hadn't read the responses when I posted)

bode

01-20-2008, 12:44 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

bode is an unknown quantity at this point

wow. please do exactly as biondino says next time and for gods sake dont fold a boat here ever.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

floyd_gehrig

01-20-2008, 01:08 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

This is one of the single best scenarios imaginable in poker. And you folded. Please tell us it was a mistake, and you didn't realise you had a full house on the turn, and you were only seeing KKK vs QQQ. Because mistakes are fine, we all make them. But if you think this was the right play, you're very, very wrong.

Thanks for the insight. It never occured to me that I had a full house. Ah...

mrhappy333

01-20-2008, 02:04 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Hartford, CT

Posts: 1,078

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

wow. dont fold a boat here ever.

3 3 3 I'm only half evil.

floyd_gehrig

01-20-2008, 03:03 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 17

I hope to redeem myself... can anyone comment on the following hand? In the end I went all-in on the turn and hit a full house by the river. Did I play too loose, especially pre-flop? I'm unsure if calling a 9.5BB raise pre-flop with AKo was the right decision, but the villain (zenzato) was a maniac (VP$IP 63.24, AF 3.19) and I felt the implied odds were in my favour if I hit at least a pair. I've watched the villain before and he is aggressive in defending his hands.

$10 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, January 20, 10:20:39 ET 2008
Table Table 127909 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: zenzato ( $25.01 USD )
Seat 7: SumOfAllFart ( $9.83 USD )
Seat 9: floyd_gehrig ( $17.35 USD )
Seat 1: DeBons555 ( $1.61 USD )
Seat 10: deL0rd ( $21.66 USD )
Seat 5: DerDude1977 ( $10 USD )
Seat 3: safran123 ( $1.92 USD )
Seat 6: L4dyAnna ( $1.89 USD )
Seat 2: talisman64 ( $9.68 USD )
Seat 8: Kardosex ( $11.04 USD )
zenzato posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
DerDude1977 posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to floyd_gehrig [ Ac Ks ]
L4dyAnna folds.
SumOfAllFart calls [$0.10 USD]
Kardosex folds.
floyd_gehrig raises [$0.50 USD]
deL0rd folds.
DeBons555 folds.
talisman64 folds.
safran123 folds.
zenzato raises [$0.95 USD]
DerDude1977 folds.
SumOfAllFart folds.
floyd_gehrig calls [$0.50 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Kh, 4h ]
zenzato bets [$3 USD]
floyd_gehrig raises [$6 USD]
zenzato calls [$3 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
zenzato bets [$5 USD]
floyd_gehrig is all-In.
zenzato calls [$5.35 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
zenzato shows [ Ad, Th ]two pairs, Kings and Fours.
floyd_gehrig shows [ Ac, Ks ]a full house, Kings full of Fours.
floyd_gehrig wins $33.90 USD from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of Fours.

biondino

01-20-2008, 04:12 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

Very nice pot, though I'd have raised the flop to $9. You have tptk vs a maniac (I assume he had pre-flop raise stats that indicated so - his VP may be 63 but if he pfr is 1 then it's a different story), but once again there is a flush draw on the flop and you are giving him good enough odds to call.

pankfish

01-21-2008, 05:17 AM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: On Tony Romo's nuts

Posts: 385

If in 2 years you are a total baller destroying the nose bleeds this is the thread everyone will bump to lololol.

Bookmark it.

<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs

meeloche

01-21-2008, 05:21 AM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

In future don't min raise. As it has been said before we want to build the pot. A raise of 3x the original bet usually is ideal.

will641

01-21-2008, 05:52 AM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: getting my swell on

Posts: 1,610

oh my lord. raise to a respectable amount first of all. dont ever play this limit poker bull crap. second, done EVER EVER EVER fold this!!!!!

Cash Rules Everything Around Me.

taipan168

01-21-2008, 06:27 AM

#14 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Sydney

Posts: 10,441

taipan168 is an unknown quantity at this point

What all the others said

Just another poker convention-type thing, bet sizes are usually described as multiples of the BB preflop, then fractions of the pot postflop.

For example in your hand you raised 2x BB preflop, then bet about 30% of the pot on the flop.

biondino

01-21-2008, 12:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

Just noticed this now - in your first post you're all about "raised x to test him/see where I stand", but your line of thought should be what raise to make to get value - sometimes this might involve slowplay (NB not often!) but even so, you're not betting for information, you're betting because you have a monster and want his stack!

Also, it's very hard to "see where you stand" with such tiny bets - anything from slowplayed sets to gutshot draws to 3rd pair is getting odds to call you, so you're actually gaining no information at all.

Rondavu

01-21-2008, 01:17 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Every time someone min raises, wolves eat an orphan

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

langaan

01-21-2008, 03:12 PM Post subject: k

#17 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 240

Floyd,
im just repeating what everyones already said,

but the simplest way to put it is that you never test the waters with a small bet. Instead, you bet an amount that will increase (build) the pot, and at the same time eliminate the pot odds for the others.

in your original posted hand, you bet 2bb on the flop. the pot was at roughly $0.50, your bet putting it to $0.70, so that gives everyone else 3.5 - 1 odds. So with that flop, anyone with a couple diamonds, open ended straight, or some may even go for a gutshot if they have an ace as well will play that hand. That in turn decreases your odds of winning.

to make matters worse, your opponent had AA which is the best hand you could hope for him to have, cause so many just wont fold AA, you likely could have taken his entire stack imo.

Pythonic

01-21-2008, 03:48 PM

#18 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!

Posts: 586

haha, you had a boat man!

Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!

jyms

01-21-2008, 04:30 PM

#19 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pythonic

haha, you had a boat man!

How the Fuck does this help in the beginner forum? Oh right, you don't make mistakes, I forgot.

YouTube - Classified - "Oh... Canada" [Official Video]

Pythonic

01-21-2008, 04:38 PM

#20 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!

Posts: 586

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pythonic

haha, you had a boat man!

How the Fuck does this help in the beginner forum? Oh right, you don't make mistakes, I forgot.

You think your foul language is the solution?

mrhappy333

01-21-2008, 08:24 PM

#21 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Hartford, CT

Posts: 1,078

Can't we all just get along?

3 3 3 I'm only half evil.

floyd_gehrig

01-23-2008, 02:33 PM

#22 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 17

Thanks for the input guys! I accept the knocks, because I know any advice is worth its weight in gold.

bode

01-23-2008, 03:45 PM

#23 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pythonic

haha, you had a boat man!

How the Fuck does this help in the beginner forum? Oh right, you don't make mistakes, I forgot.

jyms, shit like this helps 100x less than his statement did.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:34 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

When to fold QQQ?

Play for FREE and practice your game at...