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dev
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04-21-2006, 11:36 PM
Post subject: when exactly can you fold QQ pf in 25nl?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Just a quick answer please. I stacked lower pps and Ace-faces a few times with qq, but then I got stacked by kk and aa. How many hands do you need on someone (pokertracker) before you can respect the reraises and 3-bets preflop?
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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I need a min of 50 hands before I even begin to fully trust PT #'s. They are a good start, but a bad run or good run of cards can throw the opps true numbers off.
Posting the hand histories would be a better way to analyze these situations.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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This is totally read dependant though, right? 50-1oobb stacks, raise I raise 4x, reraised 12x or so... Against a good, solid, tight player I fold my QQ. Against 25nl I have been commiting my stack, and it's paid off so far (v. small sample set).
So if we have 3% pfr over 50 hands, that's good enough to fold? Do we need 100 hands w/ the player? Is 5% good enough? Should we be looking at other stats?
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
This is totally read dependant though, right? 50-1oobb stacks, raise I raise 4x, reraised 12x or so... Against a good, solid, tight player I fold my QQ. Against 25nl I have been commiting my stack, and it's paid off so far (v. small sample set).
So if we have 3% pfr over 50 hands, that's good enough to fold? Do we need 100 hands w/ the player? Is 5% good enough? Should we be looking at other stats?
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I don't know how much I trust PT stats against most of my opponents. 100 hands seems like so little to me. I've decided not to even look at any players' stats until I build a big, reliable sample size for myself. Until then I'll just rely on my observations and previous notes. On the main question here though...I really like to avoid getting all my money in pre-flop with my QQ until I've seen villain go in with a goofy hand - maybe this is a leak? I just don't know. I do know that I would be more likely to go in if villain had a 1/2 stack, but I still am not sure. Come to think of it, I haven't really been faced with this problem very often yet.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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At the stakes you play, simply cold-calling preflop with QQ is massively deceptive and profitable. QQ is a great coldcalling hand at any stakes in my opinion, but I do mostly reraise with it at 100nl, just to increase my apparent reraising range.
This will virtually eliminate folding QQ preflop from your bagotrix. If you smell AA/KK preflop, no biggie, just play for the set if they have 10x the bet behind. What you SHOULDNT do is anything to make them make it more expensive for you to see the flop, like reraising them.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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good info, thanks Renton!
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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on a Tuesday only.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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When it's really, really obvious you're not winning and your pot odds aren't good.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
At the stakes you play, simply cold-calling preflop with QQ is massively deceptive and profitable. QQ is a great coldcalling hand at any stakes in my opinion, but I do mostly reraise with it at 100nl, just to increase my apparent reraising range.
This will virtually eliminate folding QQ preflop from your bagotrix. If you smell AA/KK preflop, no biggie, just play for the set if they have 10x the bet behind. What you SHOULDNT do is anything to make them make it more expensive for you to see the flop, like reraising them.
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I think you meant to say that reraising QQ preflop in most situations in a cash game is massively standard and profitable.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
At the stakes you play, simply cold-calling preflop with QQ is massively deceptive and profitable. QQ is a great coldcalling hand at any stakes in my opinion, but I do mostly reraise with it at 100nl, just to increase my apparent reraising range.
This will virtually eliminate folding QQ preflop from your bagotrix. If you smell AA/KK preflop, no biggie, just play for the set if they have 10x the bet behind. What you SHOULDNT do is anything to make them make it more expensive for you to see the flop, like reraising them.
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I think you meant to say that reraising QQ preflop in most situations in a cash game is massively standard and profitable. |
You're undoubtedly a better player than me so I value your opinion. But are opinions are like assholes and yada yada yada.
I stacked many a person with QQ at 25nl because I chose to cold call them instead of threebet them. Remember, fools at 25nl will go to the felt with top pair of tens/jacks any day.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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3 bet
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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After deeply analyzing my Poker Tracker stats for QQ, I discovered that almost any time I showed down QQ and won a big pot I had a set. I started cold-calling with QQ at $25 NL just as Renton suggested. I don't even open raise with QQ, too easy to get stacked by AA or KK. I don't get stacked with QQ unless I lose with a set. However there are exeptions to every rule. If a short stack ( less than 40xBB )with a high PFR% raises I will reraise with QQ or even JJ to isolate and play for stacks.
Playing for 100BB stacks with QQ just dosn't make much sense to me. playing against Ax is good but not great. Playing against AA and KK is brutal. JJ and lower pairs will probably show up less often than AA and KK in a 100BB stack situation.
When you 3-bet you either shut yourself out of the hand and miss an opportunity to outflop AA, or you wind up playing for stacks. Even open raising with QQ allows AA to reraise and put you all in by the river without overbetting the pot. Weaker hands usually don't pay off, even an AJ flopping a J is hard to stack.
My Poker Tracker numbers for QQ have vastly improoved since I started cold-calling and open liming with them.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...b-b26c30c15c62
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SinkRox
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 624
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Open limping? Are you crazy!? Playing QQ like a lower pp (set or forget) will probably lesson your profits with this hand.
Maybe at your stakes/tables its a good play but usualy not, and you want a good 20k hands to compare each line. I think playing it for overpair value aswell is more profitable (just like TPTK where you go to war but usually not for you whole stack, learning to play it aggressively but also recognising when to slow down, get to SD cheap or even drop it).
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Experimenting - 200NL 5max.
"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I'll admit that slow calling QQ preflop can be a good play. Same with KK/AA. In fact, there are situations where I'm almost never reraising QQ, like tight UTG raiser raises full ring, folds to my BB where I have QQ, I think a reraise here is pretty bad actually.
But open limping with it as any sort of a standard play is really bad to be brutally honest. It's the 3rd best hand in hold'em...
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