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When do you drop small PP PF?

  
 
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drtofu66
Old 06-23-2006, 11:31 AM     Post subject: When do you drop small PP PF? #1 (permalink)  
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Is a call here worth it?

If yes-- why? If not-- why?

UTG+1 and button are TAGs, CO is a Loose-passive. I know button has AA or KK (13%/2.5% over 84 hands).


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Stack sizes:
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UTG+2: $21.80
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Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP3 with 6 6
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1, 3 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button raises to $3, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds, CO calls.
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aokrongly
Old 06-23-2006, 12:19 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Calling the raise was correct, once you got into a Raise/Reraise situation then it becomes a very expensive 2 outer draw, and you drop it. Typically the 2nd raiser has a large pocket pair, and is saying he is going to push the hand hard, so unless you catch a 6 on the flop, you just threw away $2 when you knew you didn't need to.

Again, calling the first raise is good. You have the ability to hit a set (which happens about one out of 10 times, maybe less), but you'll get paid when you hit it. Next, you might be able to take the hand unimproved. And if you miss and he keeps betting into you, it's an easy fold. But once you get 2 raisers you need to not be the creme filling in their oreo cookie.
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Renton
Old 06-23-2006, 12:28 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 if you were bought in full, and you could put villain squarely on AA/KK, then you can make that call preflop, but this EV is still marginal.
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Pelion
Old 06-23-2006, 01:20 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
if you were bought in full, and you could put villain squarely on AA/KK, then you can make that call preflop, but this EV is still marginal.
You also have to consider the number of times UTG+1 will reraise/push and force you to fold. I think the EV of a call here is very close to neutral so I usually call it. Another raise and you probably have to dump it though.
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swiggidy
Old 06-23-2006, 03:13 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Topic of the week I guess
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LimpinAintEZ
Old 06-23-2006, 03:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
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i would agree with AOKrongly on this one - I will call 4x the BB with most pocket pairs, but if you are re-raised you can just let it go...No sense in taking 66 against a super tight ass rock...I would just let it go there...if he's that tight, he might not even pay off you set if you do hit it - players that tight can sometimes spot a set hunter and get away, although at 25NL they will call down just to show the AA and gripe about it
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Renton
Old 06-23-2006, 03:28 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Also you have to take into account that when you fold to the reraise preflop, you are giving up all your equity in that pot. A lot of times it is better to make loose calls with pocket pairs because "its not as negative EV as folding".
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LimpinAintEZ
Old 06-23-2006, 04:07 PM #8 (permalink)  
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maybe i missed that in the forum of advice - But can you explain just a bit more? Calling $1 seems okay, but adding $2 - To me that $2 re-raise indicates a very strong hand - you want to call 12xBB total (8 more) when you are most likely a big underdog? the stacks are about the same as Villain has you covered - unless you have notes that the guy is capable of re-raising that much with AK or AQ, it seems like a losing propostiion...Plus i thought both players should have 10x the Raise effective stacks behind in order to make implied odds...here the big stack (of the 3 in the hand) only has $24...seems like a bit too much to call for me - and 66 is my favorite hand -
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drtofu66
Old 06-23-2006, 04:44 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
maybe i missed that in the forum of advice - But can you explain just a bit more? Calling $1 seems okay, but adding $2 - To me that $2 re-raise indicates a very strong hand - you want to call 12xBB total (8 more) when you are most likely a big underdog? the stacks are about the same as Villain has you covered - unless you have notes that the guy is capable of re-raising that much with AK or AQ, it seems like a losing propostiion...Plus i thought both players should have 10x the Raise effective stacks behind in order to make implied odds...here the big stack (of the 3 in the hand) only has $24...seems like a bit too much to call for me - and 66 is my favorite hand -
The thing is-- I freakin' KNEW he had AA or KK from his tight-assed stats. So if you KNOW someone has a bigger PP than you, is it worth the 8 more BB to call? I mean, IF you hit your set he's going to have a tough time getting away from his big PP. Looking back at this hand, I might've found a call since it was unlikely the CO was going to repop it. Just $2 more into a potential huge pot? That's the power of the small PP; you either hit your set or not. Also, take into account the equity from the UTG+1 caller. Does that additional pot-sweetener maybe make it worthwhile? I don't know the answer to this, just food for discussion.
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LimpinAintEZ
Old 06-23-2006, 04:56 PM #10 (permalink)  
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In the example mentioned, I usually get away from it here - There are times I still call especially when I KNOW the player re-raising overvalues his hands...But against this player I just let it go...But I guess I'm not all about stricly numbers...I play more on feel, and if im in this hand I would put myself as a 4;1 underdog there...Not worth my throwing $3 away...just me though -
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geoffm33
Old 06-23-2006, 04:59 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Personally I would fold, but I'm weak sauce.

Question:

Say you call...and the flop is A62 rainbow.

Whats your next move?
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Miffed22001
Old 06-23-2006, 05:02 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 call if theyll pay you off
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Renton
Old 06-23-2006, 05:05 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffm33
Personally I would fold, but I'm weak sauce.

Question:

Say you call...and the flop is A62 rainbow.

Whats your next move?
easy bet/fold if you put them squarely on AA/KK

KK probably won't raise, and AK may not raise.
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Anosmic
Old 06-23-2006, 10:21 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I'm not sure I follow AOK's logic here at all.
You're not squished in a raising war, you're being offered three stacks of around your size to play for if you hit your set.

It's $2 on an 8-to-1 shot to take a bite out of their combined $60-odd.
Fold if you miss, and get your chips in if it's a 6. Unless it's AK6 and you're SURE.

That's what I'd do. But then maybe that explains why I'm where i am...
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Pelion
Old 06-24-2006, 01:42 AM #15 (permalink)  
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I dont understand the "fold because they might be big hands" line. You are hoping they are big hands!!!

If they arent then you dont get paid. If its AA and you hit a set you hopefully take a bite out of him.
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givememyleg
Old 06-24-2006, 02:00 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 Like the thread...

...while we're on the subject, what about here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($49.25)
MP3 ($47)
CO ($7)
Button ($77)
SB ($57.70)
BB ($44.90)
UTG ($49.40)
UTG+1 ($41.55)
MP1 ($39.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7, 7.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, 2 folds, Button raises to $7, SB calls $6.75, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $5, Hero ......

The fact that SB flat called this makes it that much more appealing for me to call for my set... pot is $22 when it gets to me, and $5 to call. I don't necessarily put Button on AA/KK, I could see him doing this with with AK as well. But he is a decent player and I can see him folding AA/KK to action here. That being said, the pot is already huge preflop, making is pretty hard to fold an overpair. So, do you call here?

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Miffed22001
Old 06-24-2006, 02:06 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Like the thread...

...while we're on the subject, what about here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($49.25)
MP3 ($47)
CO ($7)
Button ($77)
SB ($57.70)
BB ($44.90)
UTG ($49.40)
UTG+1 ($41.55)
MP1 ($39.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7, 7.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, 2 folds, Button raises to $7, SB calls $6.75, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $5, Hero ......

The fact that SB flat called this makes it that much more appealing for me to call for my set... pot is $22 when it gets to me, and $5 to call. I don't necessarily put Button on AA/KK, I could see him doing this with with AK as well. But he is a decent player and I can see him folding AA/KK to action here. That being said, the pot is already huge preflop, making is pretty hard to fold an overpair. So, do you call here?
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Pelion
Old 06-24-2006, 02:21 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Like the thread...

...while we're on the subject, what about here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($49.25)
MP3 ($47)
CO ($7)
Button ($77)
SB ($57.70)
BB ($44.90)
UTG ($49.40)
UTG+1 ($41.55)
MP1 ($39.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7, 7.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, 2 folds, Button raises to $7, SB calls $6.75, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $5, Hero ......

The fact that SB flat called this makes it that much more appealing for me to call for my set... pot is $22 when it gets to me, and $5 to call. I don't necessarily put Button on AA/KK, I could see him doing this with with AK as well. But he is a decent player and I can see him folding AA/KK to action here. That being said, the pot is already huge preflop, making is pretty hard to fold an overpair. So, do you call here?
The nice thing here is you are closing the action so you know there isnt going to be a nasty raise behind. This is probably another situation where the EV is pretty neutral due to how big the reraise is but Its still nice to get in there with a hand like this. I think the other callers make it slightly +EV and you can count on SB to be sethunting too and with a PP that will make an underset more often than you will.
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
 
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