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When to bet and/or raise a draw
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Iwind
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10-25-2005, 10:15 PM
Post subject: When to bet and/or raise a draw
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 436
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Well, in some cases it it is smart to bet a draw, in some cases it is smart to raise it. I think it would be interesting with a discussion on when this is smart or not.
At the moment I base my decision on what to do on the number of people in the pot, the size of the pot, my opponents stack size, my read on the other player/s and his hand, and obviously how good my draw is.
With too many people in the pot I won't bet it as chances are too high someone will raise me, and I don't want to be the one to just call with bad odds.
If the people in the pot are passive/calling stations/general bad players that hardly ever raise and stuff I might bet it just to give myself good pot odds, that is a weak bet. I'm thinking without me betting they would probably bet more themselves and thus give me bad pot odds, so I would want to price my draws myself. If they make a weak bet before me I might raise if I think they have a bad hand, but in most cases just call or possibly fold depending on how big their bet is. Trying to raise implied odds with fancy moves I don't think work on these players anyways.
With loose/agressive and in general better players I won't make a weak bet in early position as they would just raise me if they have a hand, and if they don't they might call or fold, but they will see when I hit my draw and not pay me of. In that case I would rather raise or check-raise them unless I believe they have a great hand they would re-raise my raise with. With a raise I might make them fold and take the pot straight away, and if they just call they would in many cases let me see the river for free and also quite often pay of my draws if they hit. If they re-raise I would just fold. So this move creates both folding equity and implied odds for a nice big pot if I hit my draw.
I don't really do this if I'm drawing to a weak obvious straight, a straight on a flush board or a flush when I don't have the best one. I need to know I have the best hand if I hit my draw. Best is a straight that is hard to see, holding 56 with 47K flop and stuff like that, don't know all the fancy words for different draws but you get what I mean.
With size of the pot I mean that I want to have nice implied odds when making this move, so it's really size of pot compared to my own and opponents stack/s. I mean I don't want to raise $10 if I or my opponent only have $15 left after calling. Then chances are too high he'll go all in or if he just calls there is not that much left to take.
If someone just put out a pot sized bet at me and I believe he has a hand I just fold, big difference between raising and calling the same bet in my opinion.
Position also plays a role in this of course, I'd much rather have position on my opponent/s when making a raise. And also I don't bet/raise every single time, then it looses it's effect, especially against good players who would then make countermoves.
Does this stuff make sense, it is what I have picked up from comments people have made on my hand histories and my own experience when playing. What other factors would you consider? My experience is with 25NL, maybe I need to change stuff like this when playing higher levels?
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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I will usually bet out on a flush/straight draw if I feel the board isnt likely to have hit anyone. Basically, if it is a low, ragged flop, then I would probably bet. If it has an A, and I dont, then I will almost always check and hope someone decides to slowplay their A5, which happens more than you would expect.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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Iwind
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 436
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If they have a weak ace wouldn't they be more likely to make a potsized bet if I check than to raise a say 1/2 pot bet Imake before them? I mean, so many people limp or call small raises with any ace at 25NL so if someone bets when there is an ace and rags out the there I usually believe they have an ace. And if they think the same they are more likely to put me on an ace when I bet and then pay me off if I hit my draw, especially if they hit their two pair or something like that. And if I don't hit my draw, and they don't hit anything, I can maybe make them fold a weak ace. Depends on the player though.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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It is rare, at least in my experience, for a 25NL player to fold a weak ace, especially one that hit the ace. I've gotten into trouble attempting to get them to fold when theyve got a weak ace.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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Infamous
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 71
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I wouldn't consider it slowplaying their A-5kicker, they are just looking to get to a (cheap) showdown now, because... they don't know any better.
If you want a definite answer to your when to bet/raise, you can use game theory for this and make the play a very precise amount of the time. Betting when you think there's a chance of taking the pot as-is is necessary. That needs to be an option for a semi bluff otherwise it's just a bluff.
It's important to not make these bets obvious. Yes, 95% of players at $25nl aren't watching/don't care, but do it anyway; it's good practice for the future. If you're going to bet, bet. Don't be a pussy. Bet the same amount that you would if you had a good hand. At this level you'll probably get callers on lower draws/bottom pair anyway.
I like to bet my draws, I will also check and call sometimes. I will do the same with other kinds of hands, too. You don't want to be predictable to anybody paying attention to what you're doing. Check-raising draws is an example of this - I like to bet down my draw and then check raise because people are stoopid, but depending on your opp you could probably check raise every street and still get to a showdown with him holding third pair.
Code:
Board: 4c 8s Qs
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 49.2929 % 49.29% 00.00% { KdKh }
Hand 2: 50.7071 % 50.71% 00.00% { 9s4s }
How to semi-bluff.
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Iwind
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 436
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I really found that article about game theory interesting, I think all apply that to a certain degree, I certainly try to. Just wished I had more than 15 seconds to make my moves sometimes, feel I could play much better then, but I guess acting fast comes with experience.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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I also would like some extra time to think sometimes.. Most decisions are easy, but for some it would be nice to have 30 seconds or so.. For instance, I just went all-in on a T83Q9 board with 99 :S I'm playing at Prima, I suppose other rooms have timebanks and stuff like that?
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