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martindcx1e
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11-06-2006, 08:50 PM
Post subject: When AK Gets 3Bet
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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You are UTG with AK and raise to 4bb's. Button 3bets to 12bb's. Assume his 3bet range is the standard QQ+ & maybe AK. Is this an auto-fold every time?
This is full ring with full stacks btw.
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NLHE lahooozaher
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Quote:
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Assume his 3bet range is the standard QQ+ & maybe AK. Is this an auto-fold every time?
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Yes. You lose lots when you flop a K/A and he has KK/AA and chop once in a while as well. You will never make enough from QQ to outweigh losing to KK/AA. Same goes for when he has KK and you flop an Ace.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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11-06-2006, 09:08 PM
Post subject: Re: When AK Gets 3Bet
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#3 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
You are UTG with AK and raise to 4bb's. Button 3bets to 12bb's. Assume his 3bet range is the standard QQ+ & maybe AK. Is this an auto-fold every time?
This is full ring with full stacks btw.
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What's the point of your question? If the range is that tight, then yes, you fold.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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well i'm assuming that's an unknown's range in ssnl, and i was just checking to see if others auto-fold to 3bets.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
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QQ+/AK is too tight for a 3-bet range from the button.
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melinda27
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 165
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I fold this everytime
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
QQ+/AK is too tight for a 3-bet range from the button.
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really? what else? JJ? i'm talking 100nl here.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
QQ+/AK is too tight for a 3-bet range from the button.
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really? what else? JJ? i'm talking 100nl here. |
TT+, AQ, sometimes KQ, other stuff if you've shown a tendency to fold to 3-bets. Not to forget air.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
QQ+/AK is too tight for a 3-bet range from the button.
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really? what else? JJ? i'm talking 100nl here. |
TT+, AQ, sometimes KQ, other stuff if you've shown a tendency to fold to 3-bets. Not to forget air. |
well around here people don't really like even 3betting AQ let alone KQ unless villain is really aggro. i'd assume average 100nl players are weaker than most of us here, and i'd assume weaker players don't have a very wide 3bet range.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Warpe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
QQ+/AK is too tight for a 3-bet range from the button.
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really? what else? JJ? i'm talking 100nl here. |
TT+, AQ, sometimes KQ, other stuff if you've shown a tendency to fold to 3-bets. Not to forget air. |
well around here people don't really like even 3betting AQ let alone KQ unless villain is really aggro. i'd assume average 100nl players are weaker than most of us here, and i'd assume weaker players don't have a very wide 3bet range. |
We're talking about the button here, right?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
We're talking about the button here, right?
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do you normally 3bet AQ & KQ on the button?
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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3-betting light can be really profitable. If the player raising is loose weak or tight weak than yes I think you should do that a lot more.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
3-betting light can be really profitable. If the player raising is loose weak or tight weak than yes I think you should do that a lot more.
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i understand that but the norm at 100nl is not light 3betting. i'm not asking if i should do it or not. that's not the point of discussion. most of us here at ftr don't NORMALLY (meaning you have no read that the pfr is loose or weak) 3bet AQ/KQ. most players at 100nl are weaker players than you find around here, and weaker players have tight 3bet ranges. so i'm asking if, under normal circumstances, others are routinely folding AK to 3bets.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Warpe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i'm asking if, under normal circumstances, others are routinely folding AK to 3bets.
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To a 3-bet from the button? No, not me.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i'm asking if, under normal circumstances, others are routinely folding AK to 3bets.
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To a 3-bet from the button? No, not me. |
I don't see why the button's 3bet range would be much wider than say MP1's.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Fnord
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Against a range like AK/QQ+ with maybe JJ/TT thrown in you fold.
Against a wider range you make a stand here and decide if you're going to fight him pre-flop, on the flop or maybe even float this to the turn. If he regularly tips his hands post-flop, then call and let him tell you where he's at.
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Warpe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i'm asking if, under normal circumstances, others are routinely folding AK to 3bets.
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To a 3-bet from the button? No, not me. |
I don't see why the button's 3bet range would be much wider than say MP1's. |
A lot if not most players' reraising ranges from any position include TT/JJ/AQ, (and from the button I've seen reraises with dueces and air). So if the range is TT+/AK/AQ, then if we spike an A or a K we are ahead more often than we are behind against these players. Yes, against a player whose range is only QQ+, then I think about folding.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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If my range here is JJ+/AK then AK out of position is getting the way worst of it.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i'm asking if, under normal circumstances, others are routinely folding AK to 3bets.
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To a 3-bet from the button? No, not me. |
I don't see why the button's 3bet range would be much wider than say MP1's. |
A lot if not most players' reraising ranges from any position include TT/JJ/AQ, (and from the button I've seen reraises with dueces and air). So if the range is TT+/AK/AQ, then if we spike an A or a K we are ahead more often than we are behind against these players. Yes, against a player whose range is only QQ+, then I think about folding. |
In SSNL, I highly doubt that most players 3bet range from any position is TT+/AK/AQ.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
In SSNL, I highly doubt that most players 3bet range from any position is TT+/AK/AQ.
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Fine. Then it's all the more reason that it should be yours.
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
1. Maintain somehwere between a 15-25% vpip and 7-15% PFR.
2. Raise lots of hands in late position and fewer hands in early position.
3. Reraise 1010-AA+ AQ,AK Preflop.
4. 3/4 pot at least 85% of flops when checked too.
5. Fold to a raise on the flop if you dont have a super read and you dont have at least Aces. (2pair+ = at least aces)
6. Raise/Reraise 2 Pair+sets+ combo draws on flop.
7. In a raised pot ifyou can beat Aces you have the nuts.
8. Dont make big laydowns. By the time you can actually think about making a big laydown you are getting too good of a price at the pot to fold.(I.E dont fold sets)
Ok now you can go make at least 100k a year just knowing that.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
In SSNL, I highly doubt that most players 3bet range from any position is TT+/AK/AQ.
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Fine. Then it's all the more reason that it should be yours.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
1. Maintain somehwere between a 15-25% vpip and 7-15% PFR.
2. Raise lots of hands in late position and fewer hands in early position.
3. Reraise 1010-AA+ AQ,AK Preflop.
4. 3/4 pot at least 85% of flops when checked too.
5. Fold to a raise on the flop if you dont have a super read and you dont have at least Aces. (2pair+ = at least aces)
6. Raise/Reraise 2 Pair+sets+ combo draws on flop.
7. In a raised pot ifyou can beat Aces you have the nuts.
8. Dont make big laydowns. By the time you can actually think about making a big laydown you are getting too good of a price at the pot to fold.(I.E dont fold sets)
Ok now you can go make at least 100k a year just knowing that.
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i'm not saying that it's not mine. i'm saying most players don't 3bet that wide of a range. most players don't visit ftr, and they don't read aces' guide to beating 6-max.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Many of those hands have value taking a flop. If your 3-bet is getting too much respect I like throwing in a hand like 98s.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Against 90% of the 100nl FR players this is a fold. There aren't many reraises pre or post flop.
Does anyone ever consider 4 betting here? If you pop it to 36bbs then you should be able to fold to an AI 5 bet. It might save you some money if they hold AA/KK and you flop A/Kxx.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
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An observant player would make a note that you opened and folded to a 3bet. If there are 3 or 4 observant players at your table won't they start testing your pf raises with 3 bets?
What i guess im asking is, does folding this mean that we narrow our range for preflop raising to QQ+ because we know clever opps are going to have wider 3 bet ranges and so do it more often against us? or do we stick to our pf raising range and call next time as we can perhaps widen their 3 bet ranges?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gingerwizard
An observant player would make a note that you opened and folded to a 3bet. If there are 3 or 4 observant players at your table won't they start testing your pf raises with 3 bets?
What i guess im asking is, does folding this mean that we narrow our range for preflop raising to QQ+ because we know clever opps are going to have wider 3 bet ranges and so do it more often against us? or do we stick to our pf raising range and call next time as we can perhaps widen their 3 bet ranges?
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Well there will rarely be a table full of clever opponents at 100NL. Also, you should be careful...just because you get 3bet like 3 or 4 times in a row when you raise with AK doesn't necessarily mean you are getting played back at. People could've just run into big hands those times. If they really are playing back at you though then you should probably start 4betting them I'd guess.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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yes, you FOLD and run....
EVERYTIME!!
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Miffed22001
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11-07-2006, 05:14 PM
Post subject: Re: When AK Gets 3Bet
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#27 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
You are UTG with AK and raise to 4bb's. Button 3bets to 12bb's. Assume his 3bet range is the standard QQ+ & maybe AK. Is this an auto-fold every time?
This is full ring with full stacks btw.
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where are we playing?
Fwiw, i may 3 bet this hard and see if our opp wants to stack off with QQ/JJ/TT on any flop, especially low. If he has kk/AA hes pushing anyway.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gingerwizard
What i guess im asking is, does folding this mean that we narrow our range for preflop raising to QQ+ because we know clever opps are going to have wider 3 bet ranges and so do it more often against us? or do we stick to our pf raising range and call next time as we can perhaps widen their 3 bet ranges?
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You misunderstand. The reason we fold AK is BECAUSE we expect a narrow reraising range. If people start raising us light then we need to take that into consideration and make a stand.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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If we are looking for a "rule" or a "standard play", than thats easy. Fold!
However, it sounds like this thread is more about when to call or raise w/ this hand in this position.
For me, I only call or raise here in one of 2 situations. First, villain is a weak player and I think I can outplay him post flop.
Second, Villain is a short stack and I dont think he has AA or KK (for whatever reason), in which case I put him all in.
Third, a regular has been trying to push me around (rare) and I have to make a stand.
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