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ProZachNation
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04-18-2006, 06:53 AM
Post subject: Whats your position preflop with AXs
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Over there!
Posts: 801
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Been thinking about whats a profitable play with AXs on ten max 25NL.
Say from the button with A6s are you limping in with one limper with a typical SB abd BB behind?
Same from the CO?
How many limpers do you need/want to limp in with this? Or is it even profitable with only 1 or 2 limpers?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.
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Off5th
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ewa Beach
Posts: 180
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Personally, I think that limping in with A2-3-4, and 5 suited are profitable from the button or CO. You may get a wheel draw or even flop it... even a flush. Although once someone raises, I'd muck it preflop. These cards are good limping it to see if you could flop something big but if you cold call when someone raises you could be most certainly be dominated (outkicked) if ace flops. As for Ace-medium (6,7,8,9) . I don't bother playing them because it doesn't have any possible odds of flopping a monsters except for flush, and two pair (you also would be more inclined to bet if an ace flops). You should read "Championship Pot-limit and No-limit Holdem" by T.J. Cloutier. He explains this a great deal.
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"I want to win money so I play the worst. If I could find a group of 2nd graders with $200 bankrolls I would play them."
-Aokrangly
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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With 3+ limpers I would call or raise. With less I'd be more inclined to raise.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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limp behind limpers
raising is also an option
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Myke
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 54
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Why would raising be an option with a drawing hand?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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If you raise its for the steal. With only 1 limper it gives you momentum to either take it preflop or on a cbet. If you raise and get called you cant count on the A being an out since you could easily be outkicked.
I raise these reasonably often in CO or button when there is only 1 limper but if there are 2 or more limpers im calling for the flush.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Myke
Why would raising be an option with a drawing hand?
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In general people only limp crappy hands and drawing hands. If you raise it high enough, they are not willing to call and you win uncontested. If they do call, you throw out a 3/4+ pot continuation bet. The chance of them hitting their hand is low and they usually fold. If they call or reraise, you can slow down or fold. You would raise it up with large PPs too so doing it with <insert two cards> once in a while (or often) will keep your opponents guessing.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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if you have position, i would raise against one or two limpers, and call the rest of the times
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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I really don't like raising w/ this. The big money with Axs comes in when you flop the nut flush and someone else has a lower flush. I want as many people in the pot as possible.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
I really don't like raising w/ this. The big money with Axs comes in when you flop the nut flush and someone else has a lower flush. I want as many people in the pot as possible.
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This doesn't happen too often. If he is drawing to the same flush, he has 2 of your outs. This significantly reduces your chances of hitting it. Playing Axs strictly for the situation when you are against xys isn't a good idea. It happens so rarely.
That said, I don't mind limping along, but not for the reasons you mention. I also don't mind raising, it really depends on the opponents. Your question is pretty vague to give an exact answer, or even a general guideline as there are too many variables. One thing I will say; cold calling a raise is usually a mistake with these hands.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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oops dbl post.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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I raise Axs on button or CO against 1 limper every time just about.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
I really don't like raising w/ this. The big money with Axs comes in when you flop the nut flush and someone else has a lower flush. I want as many people in the pot as possible.
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and the small money comes from when you win the small pots by raising and betting
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natdang
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 380
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Yep, I agree. If I'm on the button and it's folded to me or there's only a limper or two, I raise Axs for the steal. With lots of limpers, I limp, but without flopping the nut flush or flush draw, I'm dropping it like it's hot.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
I really don't like raising w/ this. The big money with Axs comes in when you flop the nut flush and someone else has a lower flush. I want as many people in the pot as possible.
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and the small money comes from when you win the small pots by raising and betting |
...which goes a long way to covering off all the times you play it and have to drop it
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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You can still take down plenty of pots by just position betting the blinds after you limp or playing this aggressively w/ a flush draw, which for me keeps Axs an even money hand until pay day. I just see no reason to run off the hands that could really pay you off.
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underminedsk
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reraising you from the button
Posts: 250
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dont limp Axs ever from any position, for x<T. If you raise it, only do it from c/o or otb and its only for a steal. Axs has almost zero postflop value, so without the addition c/betting the flop its pretty much worthless.
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online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by underminedsk
dont limp Axs ever from any position, for x<Q.
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fyp.
If you're game is a bunch of starting hand nazis, get the hell out with Axs, you're dominated if 2+ limp in front. Two pair is the only way to get money from this hand. Flopping two with Ax is overrated and overvalued a lot of the time. It's too easy to draw out on.
If your game is looser, I say play for the value of the flush when it's cheap, and scrap it otherwise. There will be too many border-line situations when aces hit.
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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Its not a huge money maker, but it can definitely be played profitably. My average winnings are about 1/2-1 big blind on A9-A2s. Even if you break even with it, its still widening your range which is a good thing. And because they tend to lose you small pots and win you big pots, they will rarely be the cause of major downswings. I agree open limping with it is -EV, and if there is a lot of PFRing than limping in mid position after 1 caller might get you in trouble too. But its a hell of a lot better hand than [any 2], which seems to be the value you are placing on it if its only good for stealing blinds and cbetting.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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It's like [any 2] without the straight possibilities.
I play 68s, but I don't play A8s. I feel very strongly about this. I hate dominated hands.
As for why I play 68s... Part of it is image, part of it is a complete disrespect for people who think that the best player is the one who plays the fewest hands, part of it is OE + flush draw = +50% on the flop and a tilted out wanna-be calling me a donkey and rebuying.
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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In NL25 you can play most of the AXs profitably from any position. The game is usually so loose (VPIP over 25) and passive (Pre-flop raise under 5%) that you can limp in from all over the place. But make sure to raise that hand in LP and C-bet like a mofo. Adds to your deception and bankroll.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lodogg
In NL25 you can play most of the AXs profitably from any position. The game is usually so loose (VPIP over 25) and passive (Pre-flop raise under 5%) that you can limp in from all over the place. But make sure to raise that hand in LP and C-bet like a mofo. Adds to your deception and bankroll.
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I disagree with this. The calling stations of 25nl are so impossible to read postflop (since they always call!!!) that it becomes hard to know if you have them out aced.
I only played AQ+ out of position on Party 25nl.
Obviously any ace can be played profitable from BTN or CO.
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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Ok...Think about it this way. I have about 600k hands for NL25 in my database. The average VPIP is 26.60%. Any AX's suited is a better hand than the average hand played at this level. With this average, people have to be playing junk like K4s and worse. The key is to play slightly tighter than your opponents. With the opponents at this level playing soooo many hands that are -EV, you have an opportunity to loosen up your own game and play some hands that wouldn't fly at higher levels, and make money. The most winning players at this level are Semi-loose and aggressive players, not tight aggressive. They dominate the loose passive players. I am in the green at every position with AXs at NL25. Try it for yourself.
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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If your playing Axs with the intention of showing down your pair of Aces unimproved on the river then it will defnitely be -EV. I play this hand for nut nut flush potential, 2 pair, or 3 of a kind only. Otherwise I'm taking one stab at a flop w/ an [Axx] flop and/or if I'm in position (its about 33% less likely that someone has an Ace if you have one).
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Obviously any ace can be played profitable from BTN or CO.
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um what?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Obviously any ace can be played profitable from BTN or CO.
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um what? |
...assuming an unraised pot.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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you play every single ace on the button if there are some limpers in front of you?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you play every single ace on the button if there are some limpers in front of you?
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no.
But i think a player with more postflop skill than I could profitably. Ace high is a significant favorite over any other nonpaired/nonace hand.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Ace high is a significant favorite over any other nonpaired/nonace hand.
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not really
Hand 1: 50.5663 % 50.37% 00.19% { As6h }
Hand 2: 49.4337 % 49.24% 00.19% { JcTc }
also it is likely that someone will have another ace at a full table
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I think Lodogg is on the money here. 25NL players are loose and passive enough for flushes to earn you $$$ in the long run with Axs. You can't just play it willy nilly, though - position and the general aggression/tightness etc of the table HAS to be considered.
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