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ender555
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04-11-2005, 02:41 PM
Post subject: whats the biggest raise u can call with a pp 2-8...
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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3x bb?
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Maverick
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 82
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Im sure the guru's on this site have a more detailed answer. Personally in a tourney:
- I may fold the low PP to raises if im a short stack (and the table is still full, 4 or less people and I may push with it, SS of course)
- I may call the 3xBB (probably the max I'll pay with a weak PP though, as larger pots usually mean you'll have to bet harder to win it, assuming you miss your set)
Hey I might even be the one raising if people are getting too good a read on me.
When the tables getting short of people, small PP are hands you can take people out with. Don't be afraid to give them the heat back if its late in the game (you didn't mention what part of the tourny this is at)
Main thing is, if you're in a tourny, you dont want to be 'calling' too many chips trying to hit trips. I guess. Thats just me. Cheers! 
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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what about for ring,
thanks for the advice
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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There was a thread about this that was active a week or two ago...Hopefully somebody can hook you up with a link and you can read all about it.
Generally, though, I think the 10% rule comes into effect. If the preflop raise was 10% or less of the raisers stack, and to call the raise it is 10% or less of your stack....then it is a good call. Hit a set, you bet. No set, no bet.
10% is just a round-about number, too...I've called $3 bets with 33 from a guy that only had $26 in his stack (with me having $27 or so). So it doesn't matter what the raise is compared to the BB, it just matters how much the other guy and you both have.
The reason for 10% is that you will hit your set 12% of the time, so that makes this bet pretty profitable.
Once you hit your set I usually call or throw in a small reraise, trying to entice an over-the-top AI bet. When that happens, I click call and tell the chips to come to daddy.
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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for ring? .. about 1/10 of whichever is shorter... your stack or his.
aka, if he has $25 and you have $30, you can call up to $2.50.
the reason is that someone with AA, KK, or even QQ will probally be happy to go all in when the flop is: 7h, 2s, 5d..
Your set of 2's is suddenly able to call him all in.
You actually want raises with pocket pairs (not you raiseing, but others raiseing) because they will be much more attached to the hand they have. AK is a lot harder to fold after you have already paid $2 to see the flop.
All of this is assumeing low limits, I have no idea how they play higher up.
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In a ring game, I will rarely call more than 3xBB with a low PP.
However, in tourneys it depends on so many different factors.
What is your stack vs blinds?
How tight/loose is your table?
What is your position?
Is the raiser loose, is he tight
etc..
So, I really cannot give a conclusive answer for tourney play.
For ring, I generally only call 2-3xBB though.
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Maverick
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 82
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I like the 10% rule for rings, it makes sense and will be a profitable play if you hit your set.
I just assumed ender was referring to tourny play cause its the tourny forum. Does the 10% rule apply the same? I suppose if your short stacked that means 'no calling raises with small PP' according to 10%. 
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
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I guess he meant for ring games...
{Moved from Tournament Tactics and Histories}
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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Quote:
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I suppose if your short stacked that means 'no calling raises with small PP' according to 10%.
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i'd rather go all in with 22 than AK if i'm the one pushing as shortstack.
if your not short enough to need to go all in, thats a diffrent story... not sure how to play it, I might push, or might fold... probally fold unless I think he is trying to steal
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
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I call from 3-8BB depending on the situation.
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melinda27
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Laeelin
i'd rather go all in with 22 than AK if i'm the one pushing as shortstack.
l
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i'd much rather have AK, AK is a favorite over 22 and much more likely to have someone dominated rather than be a coinflip situation.
to the question, i go with the 10% rule also and i usually always raise/reraise with my pocket pairs.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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The biggest reason to vary from the 10% rule is if there are a lot of callers in before you. Say half the table limps and you do as well, then the button raises it to 1/6th your stack. If the other 5 people call, you're probably best off calling as well because you aren't just playing against one person. You can make more than the size of your stack, so you can call a larger bet.
If you're the first/only caller, then the 10% rule becomes fairly solid IMO.
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face
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 187
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by melinda27
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Laeelin
i'd rather go all in with 22 than AK if i'm the one pushing as shortstack.
l
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i'd much rather have AK, AK is a favorite over 22 and much more likely to have someone dominated rather than be a coinflip situation.
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This is not true. Heads up, 22 is a slight favorite over AK. In Super System, Brunson talks about making a lot of money off this misconception by letting people have AK v. his 22 hot and cold.
If, however, the decision is between 22 and AKs where neither of the 2s are the same suit as the AK, then the AKs is actually a slight favorite: 50.1/49.9.
If one of the 2s is the same suit as the AKs, 2s have the edge: 50.3%/49/7%.
22 against AKo, 2s are a clear favorite at 52.7%/47.3%.
If you expect more callers and therefore that someone has a pocket pair, then AK is better than 22 because it is only dominated by AA and KK and is a coin flip against the rest. However, if there is no pocket pair, 22 is a stronger hand than AK against multiple callers because some of the AKs 6 outs are already usually in someone else's hand, and vice versa.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Jenks, OK
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Most of what you said was true.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by face
However, if there is no pocket pair, 22 is a stronger hand than AK against multiple callers because some of the AKs 6 outs are already usually in someone else's hand, and vice versa.
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This is incorrect. With multiple callers, 22 loses a huge amount of value, no matter what they are holding. The reason is that the chance of someone catching come part of the flop is tremendous. If everyone in a hand at a 10 handed table sees the flop and there is no 2 on the flop, it is almost impossible for 22 to stand up because someone will catch a higher pair. On the contrary, AK is often better than any non-paired hand that doesn't hit AND if it hits, it is better than any non-paired hand that does hit. You'll hit a pair/straight much more frequently with AK than a set with 22.
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face
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 187
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Most of what you said was true.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by face
However, if there is no pocket pair, 22 is a stronger hand than AK against multiple callers because some of the AKs 6 outs are already usually in someone else's hand, and vice versa.
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This is incorrect. With multiple callers, 22 loses a huge amount of value, no matter what they are holding. |
I disagree. If all 10 people went allin preflop, you might be right. However, in a more realistic situation, if 2 people went allin preflop and neither of them had a pair, it would be more reasonable to assume two high aces, e.g. AKo and AJs (very loose call by short stack). In this situation, your 22 is a big favorite relative to AKo, winning 41.1% whereas AKo only wins 33.2% and AJs wins 25.7% of the time.
However, given there are 3 or 4 people allin, your odds of facing an overpair are very high, probably around 80-90% (out of my ass, here). Therefore, calling allin with 2s is not good in a heads up or multiway pot unless for some reason you were certain there weren't overpairs. Also, if there are 9 hands that are unpaired all going in on a suicide pact, this discussion is completely academic, because it almost never happens.
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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I like that 10% of small stack rule, that allows a fair amount of calls.
Does that mean 10% each bet? or 10% all the way till river?
I usually fold on the flop if i don't hit it. Unless it's rags then I'll try and take it
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
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ender, that refers only to preflop calls. After that you have only slightly better than a 4% chance to make your set, so usually even a minbet is enough to ruin your pot odds.
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
ender, that refers only to preflop calls. After that you have only slightly better than a 4% chance to make your set, so usually even a minbet is enough to ruin your pot odds.
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Thanks, I figured.
Man does it suck when you fold on the flop, and the turn gives you a set.
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{This post has been removed}
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ender555
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
ender, that refers only to preflop calls. After that you have only slightly better than a 4% chance to make your set, so usually even a minbet is enough to ruin your pot odds.
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Thanks, I figured.
Man does it suck when you fold on the flop, and the turn gives you a set. |
Yeah, but that's only slightly more than a 4% chance to happen.
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sykotik489
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 99
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by face
Quote:
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Originally Posted by melinda27
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Laeelin
i'd rather go all in with 22 than AK if i'm the one pushing as shortstack.
l
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i'd much rather have AK, AK is a favorite over 22 and much more likely to have someone dominated rather than be a coinflip situation.
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This is not true. Heads up, 22 is a slight favorite over AK. In Super System, Brunson talks about making a lot of money off this misconception by letting people have AK v. his 22 hot and cold.
. |
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds...oiMC4yOTgiO30=
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You should never wave at people you don't know, cause what if they don't have a hand. They'll think you're cocky. "Look what I got motherfucker, this thing is useful, I'ma go pick somethin up."
- Mitch Hedberg
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sykotik489
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 99
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AK is a slight favorite over 22
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You should never wave at people you don't know, cause what if they don't have a hand. They'll think you're cocky. "Look what I got motherfucker, this thing is useful, I'ma go pick somethin up."
- Mitch Hedberg
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face
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 187
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sykotik489
AK is a slight favorite over 22
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The only time AK is a slight favorite over 22 is when AK is suited and both of the twos are different suits than the AKs. This does not stand for the idea that AK has a slight edge over 22. Even if your AK is suited, you will be a dog about 1 - (38/49 * 38/48) times, or about 40% of the time to 22. So, 75% of the time AK is not suited and is a dog to 22, and 40% of the remaining 25% of the time (10% of the time) it is still a dog to 22.
85% of randomly chosen AK hands versus randomly chosen 22 hands are underdogs.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
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I have to question this 10% rule. It seems to be based on the assumption that you will almost always double up if your set hits. Is that realistic? It isn't for me.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnnyawe
I have to question this 10% rule. It seems to be based on the assumption that you will almost always double up if your set hits. Is that realistic? It isn't for me.
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For me, it is. But part of that might be the whole thing with me playing short stack (so I get my pushes called more often).
You have to remember too, that you're ahead in a hand that they don't hit, so you don't necessarily lose every time you don't get your set.
If they have a higher pocket pair, chances are that they will call/push you all-in when you hit. If they don't, then you don't necessarily have to hit to win.
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