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What's better: take pot down or extract money at risk??

  
 
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r8ed
Old 10-03-2005, 06:25 PM     Post subject: What's better: take pot down or extract money at risk?? #1 (permalink)  
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I know this is situational, but I'm wondering what you guys think is the best way to play post flop at 25NL full ring. Say you have a pocket pair and hit your trips, but the board has straight and flush potential and possibly overs but not overly scary. There was <= 4BB raise preflop. You know if you bet the pot, you will most likely get folded to. If you bet 1/2 pot or less, then you will get at least one caller. Do you let anyone see the turn in order to extract more money with the risk that another card will put you potentially behind? Or do you bet the pot to either all folds or somebody bold enough to chase (or somebody w/ 2 pair)?

I have had success with both. Here are the pros and cons I see:
BET POT (or enough to make only a major fish chase)
------------
PROS:
Reduce suckouts, variance and TILT
Reduce turn/river decisions that may put your stack in jeopardy
CONS:
Take down smaller pots
Not giving someone a chance to hit second best hand
Too mechanical a decision

BET SMALL/CHECK
------------
PROS:
Give someone a chance to hit second best hand
Showing weakness will make opponent more likely to give you more chips
CONS:
Opponent can play off your weakness if draw is possible
They have the odds (or close to it) to chase

I was betting the pot and occassionaly getting a chaser who I destacked or folded on the turn if they missed. I was happy plodding away building my stack.

Recently, I tried to mix in some hands where I "give the underdog a shot". One guy hit a straight and beat me, the other guy paired a jack on the river giving him second highest hand and I took his money. Both hands I had to play cautiously once the turn came because in both cases it seemed to help the other player at the time.

I see posts from some people that say "drop the hammer" and others that say "you gotta get more money from that hand". Again, I know everything is situation dependant, but any thoughts? I have turned my game around recently but I think postflop play is something I have to continually work at to be a better player.
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bigred
Old 10-03-2005, 07:39 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I really think this is an opinionated question with no right or wrong answer.

I usually try to bet the pot or more to make fish pay huge to catch draws.

However, this also leads to larger tilt if they do hit since you've invested a lot more money in the hand and still have to drop it.

I'm not going to say what I think is best but here's a few other things to consider.

Half pot or less bets give players a little better odds to call and chase. Some argue that it also helps eliminate some variance. The reasoning is that many players are going to call a bet on a flush draw no matter what so in order to eliminate a little variance, you invest less money into the pot and if the draw doesn't hit on turn, turn up the volume of beeting now that their draws odds are cut in half.

It all just comes down to preference.
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Irisheyes
Old 10-03-2005, 07:46 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Are you sure you're able to fold if you think he hit his draw?
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 10-03-2005, 07:57 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Big pots you try to take down. Small pots it's usually fine to try and build them.
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r8ed
Old 10-03-2005, 08:10 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Are you sure you're able to fold if you think he hit his draw?
It depends on the opponent and what they do at that point, but at 25NL I think I have a hard time laying down trips unless it is blatent I am sunk. This is mainly the reason I bet the pot. If the board is not scary, I am more patient, but will usually make a move on the turn. My VPIP is around 21% so when I'm in a hand I want to take it down (not that I'm super tight but still) . Some of that 21% is playing some looser hands on the button so I don't seem too tight. I'm at 14 BB/100 at 25NL but I think playing these hands too conservatively may be keeping that number lower than it could be.

This isn't specific to trips but I think trips is the hand where you know you are made on the flop so it comes up often there.
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Irisheyes
Old 10-03-2005, 08:51 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed

This isn't specific to trips but I think trips is the hand where you know you are made on the flop so it comes up often there.
I don't consider a set to be invincible on a really draw heavy flop with lots of players in the hand, in this case I just bet the pot and see what happens, I'll take a small pot rather then loose a bigger one on a later street if I end up folding my set (or even worse if I don't fold it and loose).

On the other hand I'll check a set on a Qc 8h 5d flop trying to let someone else hit a second best hand.

Also I only ever slowplay a hand that I can fold if I think that I'm beat.
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Old 10-03-2005, 09:02 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Bet the pot because a bunch of people will call anyway. I'm less likely to do this if I'm on the button and everyone checks.

If I'm the first to act, I'm betting though.
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Laeelin
Old 10-03-2005, 09:04 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
at 25NL full ring
I stopped there...

at $25NL, you push sets on flops with straight/flush drawing flops.

No need to play it slow, if they will call a pot sized bet, chances are really good that they will call an all in.

I cant stress this enough... if they have the draw they will often call. Sure sometimes someone will fold that would have called a smaller bet, but the times you get a caller and double up will more than make up for the times you didnt get a caller to make a smaller pot.

ps: Didn't you know? People go all in to bluff and when they have a draw... mid pair is good enough to call an all in with!!

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A. Do you use correct bankroll management?
 
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Miffed22001
Old 10-04-2005, 01:55 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Definatly a situational question but
at 25nl im going to bet every thing hard simply becuase i found too many people will call with hands they should fold and most people will also pay almost anything when on an oesd or flush draw to see the turn but not often the river. Therefore for me id just pot bet when you think you are ahead all the time. Yes you will win many pots uncontested that are small and you have to be aware that callers, when you have this sort of table image are dangerous (providing anyone at 25nl is paying attention to your table image) Id bet a set like top pair for example. At this level imo with so many players willing to make bad calls then dont play fancy poker play abc poker betting hard when ahead etc. If players will make bad calls they will also make awful calls with unmade hands when you simply defend good hands. thats where i would think the money is to be made
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