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Renton
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05-22-2006, 07:04 AM
Post subject: What is your range?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Ok heres the deal.
You sitting on the button with two cards at a 200NL table on Party Poker. Effective stacks are $200 and there are ten players.
Folds to the player in third position, a fairly solid but fairly predictable 18/9 TAgg raises to 7. It folds to you.
What is your calling range? Threebetting range? Range of hands that you will threebet occasionally but mostly just call?
Here's mine:
Call: 22-QQ, AJs, AQ, KQs
Reraise: KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: TT+, 67s-JTs
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AK
I think I probably could call with more.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: Any 2 I guess if the mood is right.
Sometimes call: 78s-JTs
Notable: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.
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Krieg1984
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05-22-2006, 09:22 AM
Post subject: Re: What is your range?
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#3 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 93
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Ok heres the deal.
You sitting on the button with two cards at a 200NL table on Party Poker. Effective stacks are $200 and there are ten players.
Folds to the player in third position, a fairly solid but fairly predictable 18/9 TAgg raises to 7. It folds to you.
What is your calling range? Threebetting range? Range of hands that you will threebet occasionally but mostly just call?
Here's mine:
Call: 22-QQ, AJs, AQ, KQs
Reraise: KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: TT+, 67s-JTs
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AK
I think I probably could call with more. |
This depends alot on my table image, but assuming I'm playing my normal full-ring tagg game:
Call: JJ-22, AQs, AK
Reraise: AA, KK, QQ, AKs
Sometimes reraise: TT+, JTs-54s, AK
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AKs
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Lukie: "Yo Fnord I was playing omaha earlier"
Lukie: "I got dealt quads"
Lukie: "but everyone folded to my raise  "
Lukie: "I was going to pwn everyone"
Fnord: "Gotta slowplay them big hands man..."
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badandy519
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: mckinney, tx
Posts: 223
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Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA,
Sometimes reraise: 99+, AK.
Sometimes call: 67s-JTs, AK
I agree with Wildbob....: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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predictable tagg?
Any two
steal any pot he missed
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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am I the only one that thinks reraising suited connectors is pretty terrible in this spot?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
predictable tagg?
Any two
steal any pot he missed
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I'm a fairly predictable tagg, and I love players who think they can float on me with grossly inferior cards in nothing pots and think THEY are the ones getting the best of it.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I don't have any real preset ranges here to be honest. I like 3-betting my big pairs and AK. Sometimes I'll just call with those. Calling with a small or mid pair here is so easy it's routine. Sometimes I'll call with a good suited connector, but sometimes not. Depends a lot about what I tought of this player's post-flop skill and the players behind me. Hands like AJ, KQ, AQo, etc, are instamucks.
Oh yeah, and to reiterate my point. I think a lot of players around here see the ol' 3-betting with suited connectors as a good changeup play, and it certainly can be. Somebody tell me why are we reraising with 89s here when there's 5bb in the pot, and a solid tagg opened for pot with seven players behind him including the blinds? Bad time for it, sorry.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I like to re-raise with JJ and QQ here most of the time, because they can be a bitch to play if you just call, and get heavy action when you flop an overpair. I want to find out where I stand right away.
I think re-raising with a small suited connector here is mind-bogglingly bad, you're probably dominated and you're building a big pot preflop to make sure that your implied odds suck. What I do with suited connectors here depends on whether or not this player gets married to overpairs.
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relayer
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
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Lukie: Perhaps you'd be so good as to post a simple definition of "float." I've seen it used here with increasing frequency, and I'm clueless as to what it means.
Thanks in advance.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by relayer
Lukie: Perhaps you'd be so good as to post a simple definition of "float." I've seen it used here with increasing frequency, and I'm clueless as to what it means.
Thanks in advance.
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Calling without pot odds, intending on taking away the pot on a later street by representing something or when shown weakness.
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relayer
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
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Thank you, fnord.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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What is wrong with seeing a flop in position with big suited broadways against a mediocre-plus player who raises 9%?
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Nova442
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
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Domination seems to be a huge concern.
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"Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of War."
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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I'm a fairly predictable tagg, and I love players who think they can float on me with grossly inferior cards in nothing pots and think THEY are the ones getting the best of it.
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Hopefully we'll get to play together one day when you leave that stars dump 
Then we'll test how you like getting all in with just top pair against an aggro and playing Ace high unimproved.
If you cant call the bets then you cant win the pots. Most floaters below 400nl are poor players anyway, i still have some way to go.
btw, i only need to 'not float' once for you to not like playing for stacks.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Floating such high variance play.. I stopped doing it for the most part. Maybe it gets better at the higher limits where you have more fold equity?
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Floating such high variance play.. I stopped doing it for the most part. Maybe it gets better at the higher limits where you have more fold equity?
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it works better when players arent calling stations (as they are at lower limits) wont get all in on holdings likely to be well behind a raise and those that know players can read their likely hole card range.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
it works better when players arent calling stations (as they are at lower limits) wont get all in on holdings likely to be well behind a raise and those that know players can read their likely hole card range.
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Right, thx for the confirmation. So I'm guessing I'll have to wait with floating til 50NL right? (or the tighter 20NL tables atleast, had some success with it there)
One last question, do you generally wait with floating til you get bigstacked, like 200BB+, or not?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WildBobAA
Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA, AK
Notable: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.
Sometimes reraise: Any 2 I guess if the mood is right.
Sometimes call: 78s-JTs
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For me the mood is very rarely right to call with SCs and any 2 but I guess it could happen agains a certain few.
Aside from that I totally agree. I also hate being dominated.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Call: 22-JJ
Sometimes Call: AKs/QQ/KK/AA
Reraise: AKs/QQ/KK/AA
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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I don't love the reraise here with the suited connectors. But its not the worse play in the world. Personaly I just call here with the suited connectors. However I do reraise big with QQ to AA and reraise the min with 99 to JJ, AQ and AK. Reraising with 99to JJ, AQ and Ak is not becuase I am sure I have the best hand. But gives me a better feel for where I stand and hopefully gets me heads up. If I reraise with AQ and the ace hits I am very carefull. Just call with 22 to 88 and play suited connectors and gappers 34 to J10. Toss AJ,KQ ect....
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Off5th
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05-24-2006, 08:53 AM
Post subject: Re: What is your range?
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#22 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ewa Beach
Posts: 180
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Ok heres the deal.
You sitting on the button with two cards at a 200NL table on Party Poker. Effective stacks are $200 and there are ten players.
Folds to the player in third position, a fairly solid but fairly predictable 18/9 TAgg raises to 7. It folds to you.
What is your calling range? Threebetting range? Range of hands that you will threebet occasionally but mostly just call?
Here's mine:
Call: 22-QQ, AJs, AQ, KQs
Reraise: KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: TT+, 67s-JTs
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AK
I think I probably could call with more. |
Explain more here why reraising suited-connectors is a good play here.
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"I want to win money so I play the worst. If I could find a group of 2nd graders with $200 bankrolls I would play them."
-Aokrangly
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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its +ev against loose raisers
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
its +ev against loose raisers
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i think you mean its +ev vs loose callers
fwiw ive almost completely stopped playing small suited connectors entirely. its too much work. the flushes arent worth anything once you make them, and if you make the straight, its tough for anyone else to have a hand, unless they made a set ( in which case you are in big trouble until the river falls). my new hobby is to fight off draws rather than try to make them.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
my new hobby is to fight off draws rather than try to make them.
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Quoted for truth. That struck home for some reason.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Renton said : "It's (reraise w suited connectors) + EV against loose raisers".
Aren't we talking about a Tagg raising from EP? What does that have to do with "loose raisers"?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Renton said : "It's (reraise w suited connectors) + EV against loose raisers".
Aren't we talking about a Tagg raising from EP? What does that have to do with "loose raisers"?
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well I also said he's 9% PFR. That means he's a somewhat loose raiser.
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badandy519
Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA,
Sometimes reraise: 99+, AK.
Sometimes call: 67s-JTs, AK
I agree with Wildbob....: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.
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I tend to follow this range, and the difference between others mentioned is that I generally don't like to reraise with AK suited or not. But as listed here, it's more of an optional play for me.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
fwiw ive almost completely stopped playing small suited connectors entirely.
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I've rarely called with them. However, I like raising with them.
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Awaji E
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Japan
Posts: 61
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For suited connectors, I'm curious why people stop at 7-8s or 6-7s. Why not go down to 4-5s? What does 8-9s have that 4-5s doesn't, in this situation?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Awaji E
For suited connectors, I'm curious why people stop at 7-8s or 6-7s. Why not go down to 4-5s? What does 8-9s have that 4-5s doesn't, in this situation?
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Better chance of making straight over straight and boat over boat.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Aside from that I totally agree. I also hate being dominated.
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I guess I hate being dominated too, but my behavior to this point wouldn't demonstrate that (AJ and AQ are so pretty sometimes). I think I found a little leak to plug... 
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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So is it really a huge ev mistake to cold call here with AJs, AQs, AQ?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
So is it really a huge ev mistake to cold call here with AJs, AQs, AQ?
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I don't think AQs is an obvious fold at all. It seems to be common to assume that a preflop raiser automatically has AK and therefore you should fold all weaker aces, but I think that assumption is just about the stupidest thing ever. That's the assumption that fish make when they call three barrels with their underpair just because the board doesn't have a face card on it.
Once you get down to AJ you're starting to play pretty shittily against his range.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
So is it really a huge ev mistake to cold call here with AJs, AQs, AQ?
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a cold call is when you just call a bet in a raise (or a raise and reraise preflop).
If you are a solid post-flop player and you can play your position well, I don't think it's as big of a mistake as people make it out to be. But I still think in the specific situation outlined, yes, it's probably a mistake nonetheless.
Also, the 9% PFR is kind of deceiving in this spot. You make it seem like it's a really laggy range. But in actuality, a 9% range looks something like:
77+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo
More importantly, in his position, it's undoubtedly tighter.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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I reraise AK/AQ and pp 99+ and occasionally other stuff like sc's.
As a general rule i wouldnt reraise trash or sc's here a whole lot but i'd do a lot of calling against predicatble opposition.
If the stacks were 200bbs deep this would be a whole different scenario considering implied odds...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I wish more players like miffed played in my games.
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Krieg1984
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 93
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Yeah, generally when I raise in EP I want a player or two to call me with garbage.
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Lukie: "Yo Fnord I was playing omaha earlier"
Lukie: "I got dealt quads"
Lukie: "but everyone folded to my raise "
Lukie: "I was going to pwn everyone"
Fnord: "Gotta slowplay them big hands man..."
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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re raise with 99 miffed??? LOLOLOLOL. against a raiser from early postition u are misplaying ur hand so badly u might as well give away half ur stack everytime in this situation. terrible play miffed. bigboy leaves this place for a couple days and some of you guys start blabbing about terrible plays for everyone else to learn. Re raise with suited connectors Renton?? LOLOLOL. You two still have a lot to learn about this game. wow. HAHAHAH
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im good at poker
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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you two might think ur good, but no amount of skill can make you a winning player playin like a fish. when u start re raising with garbage can not possibly ever be +EV in a full ring when the original raiser is doing it from early position. You two noobs make me laugh pretty hard. When I'm done with finals I will come back to this place and give you two some more lessons on how to play this game. Thanks for the laugh tho miffed and renton.
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im good at poker
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
re raise with 99 miffed??? LOLOLOLOL. against a raiser from early postition u are misplaying ur hand so badly u might as well give away half ur stack everytime in this situation. terrible play miffed. bigboy leaves this place for a couple days and some of you guys start blabbing about terrible plays for everyone else to learn. Re raise with suited connectors Renton?? LOLOLOL. You two still have a lot to learn about this game. wow. HAHAHAH
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bigboy
move to site where players arent donks then rephrase your plays.
Textbook works on donkdog but it wont at tighter sites.
As i rule i dont reraise 99 every time, sit me with a deep stack and we'll see how you fight off implied odds...
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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I wish more players like miffed played in my games.
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Im trying to decide if this is nice
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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LOL miffed u say move to a site where players arent donks. LOLOLOL and why sunshine, would i want to do that if i am winning where i am playing? You are a funny kid i give u that. but enough with the jokes. im tired of them.
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im good at poker
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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and i am 100% sure the way i play i will win no matter where i play. for sure. You on the other hand...LOL.
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im good at poker
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
LOL miffed u say move to a site where players arent donks. LOLOLOL and why sunshine, would i want to do that if i am winning where i am playing? You are a funny kid i give u that. but enough with the jokes. im tired of them.
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i didnt tell you to move dozy, i noted that when you dont play against players who grossly overplay their hands or just basically suck at medium limits you need to become *slightly* more creative.
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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bigboy
move to site where players arent donks ..[/quote]
sounds like ur telling me to move there. lol. u get funnier by the minute man. seriously.
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im good at poker
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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maybe just stop trying to sound smart and stop talking because it is working in reverse for you. You have made bad recommendations to the forum member and someone needs to say that ur plays are horrible... I am that someone. now just learn from it and move on. no big deal.
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im good at poker
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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i know u will probably take my advice anyway without acknowledging me. its ok but at least stop trying to sound like u know what ur doing because you really don't.
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im good at poker
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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while hes not very diplomatic, hes right. ive already mentioned above in this thread that i think suited-connectors are best played only rarely. the best way to play them imo is to enter pots in position. youre not necessarily trying to make a hand, rather you are floating with them. for as many times as you actually make a hand with the SC, an equal amount of the time you will be simply exploiting weaknesses and scooping up orphan pots. they should be used as an excuse to enter more pots in position, in order to take advantage of that edge, which in most higher stakes deep-stacked games, is more important than hand values themselves.
re-raising with 99 is suicide. if youre right (ie, opp has big cards), you have sent the action back around. if they come over the top with their AKs, you now have to fold the hand. even if they flat call, you are less than even-money since they can easily CLAIM any overcard (1/3 of the deck). however, most times you will be on two outs to begin with and have now swelled the pot to the point where it cannot be profitable in the long run even if you do manage to set up.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
maybe just stop trying to sound smart and stop talking because it is working in reverse for you. You have made bad recommendations to the forum member and someone needs to say that ur plays are horrible... I am that someone. now just learn from it and move on. no big deal.
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1. not being smart making a suggestion. I suggest, you TELL. Big difference. When you look them up in the dictionary you'll find out
2. Bad recomendations? There is a paragraph in a sklansky book called 'theory of Poker' that notes something like raising with 53s is acceptatble at times because you need to create an image on your good hands. The same applies to reraising providing you have post-flop play. Maybe not with 53s admittedly but ppl will agree that reraising is a tactic that can be used to doiminate the table.
3. Bad recomendations? All ive seen from you so far is a lot of mouth and no proof. Your answers are fine, but they are the ABC line against players who play badly. Against players who dont suck so much you need to use a bit of brain. Ive said it before and ill say it again, my recomendations are not bad they are probably a little unorthodox a little aggressive but certainly attainable. I think and suggest you tell. I wonder which one people wnat to listen to? I certainly havent listened to a post you've made yet because you havent told me anything i dont know.
I may not play *exactly* from the textbook but at least i debate and discuss rather than tell and patronise
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