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Rabid Dog
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02-15-2006, 05:35 PM
Post subject: What would you do here
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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25Nl full ring (10 seats)
Hero dealt KK in MLP
UTG raises to $0.75
EMP calls $0.75
Hero calls $0.75
Flop comes 8c 5c Kc
UTG bets $2.00
EMP raises to $6.00
Hero?
1) My mistake was not re-raising pre-flop. How much should I have re-raised (assuming I'm right that was a mistake by me, I'm certain it was.)
2) Fold right move?
I dont remeber either UTG or EMP being crazy betters before this, they both seemed tight.
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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Yeah, you should have raised it up to $3-$4 PF. Definitely don't fold the flop here; I would probably push, though you can also make the case for smoothcalling.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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all in.......you even have FE because mp would not be raising 3x with a high flush...but youre probably good anyway
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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3-bet preflop, push flop
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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How much should I have re-raised
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I'd just stick in a ~pot-sized raise when it's on you preflop. $3 total seems like a good amount. This means you are pretty much committing yourself to any non-A flop.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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So the consciences is that a $3.00 pre flop raise should have been made. I understand that.
But I question the push on the flop to the $6 raise of the $2 bet. Why would you push. Not because I think its wrong, but because I dont understand it. Let me see if I understand this. If he had the Ace high flush he probably would have pushed, right? So since he only bet $6 he didnt have the Ace high flush. But any 2 clubs here would have beat me.
I guess I was gun shy by this point. On another table I lost one hand 999TT to JJJTT for $25. And another hand to the same guy where his flush (3 suit on the board) took down my K high straight for another $10.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Consensus
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Consensus
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Ha, I knew someone would catch that. Thats what I get for being too lazy to spell check something.
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DaHorror
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 616
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It's probably all going in the middle here anyway - might as well get it over with on the flop and lose your stack or suck out admirably :P
UTG probably has AA with Ac and will gladly call, EMP seems to have a non A hi flush and will surely call.
Depending on stack depth you could risk simply calling but the pot's getting so big you aren't likely to get away from this hand by the river anyway with odds etc.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Make it $3 preflop and push the flop.
By the way your standard raise, if there was no raise before you, should be $2.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Thanks. Here's another question thats probably stupid. Do you bet this the same way if your bonus hunting? I'm guessing yes, because you still want to make money on top of the bonus.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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How can anyone offer any sound advice on how to play this hand without first asking what the stack sizes of the players involved in the hand were? What the best action to take on the flop will be obviously depend on your stack size, and that of UTG and EMP. Before deciding what to do on the flop, you should be asking yourself a few questions first:
o EMP & UTG; are these solid players, or and they loose donkeys?What range of hands are you putting them on?
o If you assume you are behind to a flush already, what are your odds of filling up on the next card, by the river? How big is the pot now, and big can I expect it to get based on how I think the action may unfold?
o The problem with just calling the $6 should be clear; what's your plan on the turn if you miss filling up?
o If you push, do you have any fold equity? Who is likely to call and how much are they behind?
In general, my advice would be to try to focus more on the thought process you should go through in all your decision making and try to be a little less results oriented. (your comment about being shy because of the results in another hand and another table is troubling and this kind of thinking is not helpful for you at all).
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
o EMP & UTG; are these solid players, or and they loose donkeys?What range of hands are you putting them on?
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I did mention that I dont remember them being crazy betters during the game. They were tight.
Quote:
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o If you assume you are behind to a flush already, what are your odds of filling up on the next card, by the river? How big is the pot now, and big can I expect it to get based on how I think the action may unfold?
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3 Kings already out there, the odds have to be slim the 4th was comming. But the other 2 cards could have paired also to fill a full house...Pot was only about $2.50. So basically UTG bet the pot on the flop and EMP 3 bet raised that.
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o The problem with just calling the $6 should be clear; what's your plan on the turn if you miss filling up?
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Most likely fold. But that would depend on EMP's turn bet, he might have just checked (Im doubting it though)
Quote:
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o If you push, do you have any fold equity? Who is likely to call and how much are they behind?
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Ive never been completely clear on fold equity and how to determine that.
Stack sizes
Hero $27 and change
UTG $8 and change
EMP $40 and change
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Why on earth would someone push an ace high flush on the flop
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Quote:
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Why on earth would someone push an ace high flush on the flop
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I'm sorry, you lost me on this. Are you saying he wouldn't push an ace high flush on the flop, he would slow play it for added value? So by making the $6 bet this says he doesnt have the ace high flush? But he does have a flush though, right? So do I have enough outs that would have made pushing against his $6 bet favorable to me. I had no clubs so basically I had 9 outs to beat the flush, right?
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dj newman
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 210
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7 outs on the turn and 10 outs on the river to complete the full house....
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dj newman
7 outs on the turn and 10 outs on the river to complete the full house....
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Ok I see where I mis-added. I was just going from the flop only and not counting the cards on the turn and river.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog
Quote:
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Why on earth would someone push an ace high flush on the flop
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I'm sorry, you lost me on this. Are you saying he wouldn't push an ace high flush on the flop, he would slow play it for added value? So by making the $6 bet this says he doesnt have the ace high flush? But he does have a flush though, right? So do I have enough outs that would have made pushing against his $6 bet favorable to me. I had no clubs so basically I had 9 outs to beat the flush, right? |
There's not a chance in the world he has the nut flush. He's protecting a hand; a small flush, 2 pair, set. The nut flush tries to get overcalls and more money on fourth.
The worst play the nut flush could make is to push this flop. Pushing is generally for isolation. Nut flushes don't isolate.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
There's not a chance in the world he has the nut flush. He's protecting a hand; a small flush, 2 pair, set. The nut flush tries to get overcalls and more money on fourth.
The worst play the nut flush could make is to push this flop. Pushing is generally for isolation. Nut flushes don't isolate.
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Ok, that makes sense. So knowing this, does it make sense to push against his $6 bet? Yeah I beat 2 pair, and any trips except aces. But with a $6 bet ($4 raise to the $2 bet) wouldnt you believe he had a flush, even if it was a small flush. So now does it make sense to push against the $6 bet?
Keeping this thread in mind tonight, I played this hand pretty much the way it was talked here. Only I pushed pre flop.
Hero: AA in BB
SB: raises to $1
Hero: raises $3
everyone else folds to the SB
SB: raises to $6
Hero: pushes all in
SB: calls
Hero wins $47 pot with two pair Aces and Fives
SB had two pair Kings and Fives.
Of course its a given here to push, after he re-raised my re-raise of his raise.
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naturaltan
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 108
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so ... what was the result?
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Result of original example in post one: Everyone folded to the EMP's $6 bet.
Result of example above is listed: I won it.
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SinkRox
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 624
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This is just a nasty situation of hitting a set on a suited flop, with about 35% to fill up by the river, no-ones gonna fold that if theyre a good player... unless your stacks are over 200bigblinds I guess. So, get ya stack in, I may just Flat call at the flop to try and get UTG along for the ride aswell to help build the pot and help your pot-odds for *if* EMP has flopped flush.
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Experimenting - 200NL 5max.
"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
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