Originally Posted by diowk

Hey people, brand new to this forum. Looks great! Here is my question:

If the pot is at 100,i have a 3d/6h, and i have to call a raise of 25 to see the flop. should I call so i can see the flop or should i just fold? what if the pot is at 1000 and i have to call a bet of 100 to see the flop? is there ever a time where you should call with cards like that or should you always fold? I have read that you should only call with "premium starting hands" (AA,AK,AJ, KK,QQ, JJ etc....) no matter what the size of the bet/pot is. Is this true? thanks alot everyone. all your answers are greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Here's a rule for you that will help solve 2 and 3. If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Here's a rule for you that will help solve 2 and 3. If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting????

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

WTF????????? Ok i have kept my comments away from you AOK, and i've bit my tongue on many many issues regarding you. I'm done. WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting???? Are you seriously recommending ANYONE, let alone a beginner do this???

Originally Posted by jackvance

Amen. That's a very nice PR post Aok made there, probably made you feel real good, enticed you to take his lessons. The biggest merit there is however not how to play poker, but it's a good example of a good PR post.

First giving advice with authority. Then backing it up with a nice case-specific example. Which also with some subtlety plugged the fact that he gives lessons. Making the example very vivid, drawing you in. Adding some "drama".. the guy was screaming "fold fold"! And then ofcourse the happy end, where he took the pot, and most of all, the guy who took his lessons became a professional poker player. Nicely written indeed.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

This response is unfair to AOK. You have taken his statement completely out of context. AOK clearly stated that you should always fold your crappy cards. The statement you quoted was advice for if you for some reason just think you absolutely have to play those crappy cards once in a while, you might as well do it in a way that has value rather than getting yourself trapped into losing a lot of chip when dominated.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

WTF????????? Ok i have kept my comments away from you AOK, and i've bit my tongue on many many issues regarding you. I'm done. WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting???? Are you seriously recommending ANYONE, let alone a beginner do this???

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

In every one of your posts I read you put yourself off to all these new kids as some sort of poker god who can take their game to the top.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And then you proceded to give them BS advice that uses alot of fancy words to make them feel good about themselves and their play.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And through no fault of their own because noone stands up and yells BS, all of the innocent new kids believe you.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

But please dear god at least have the fucking courtesy to not tell people that your advice is 100% correct and that they "should always listen to you."

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Diowk, save your money on lessons lol, all the info you need can be found on here for free.

Originally Posted by jackvance

The biggest merit there is however not how to play poker, but it's a good example of a good PR post.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I don't care the reasoning behind the advice, its still horrible, there are ZERO, i repeat ZERO situations where doing this would be appropriate. There is zero value in this and there never will be.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

He doesn't have a system. It hasn't worked for anyone else.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

He hasn't spent any time actually trying to help FTR players.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I'm sorry AOK is a beautiful caring wonderful human being who only cares about the welfare of the beginners circle. You should take his lesson, wink wink, hint hint. Open up your eyes, you're being scammed.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by jackvance

Aok could be a poker genius, or a great teacher at poker. It is hard to say b/c everything he says is clouded in great eloquence. For example the "19 hands". A catching phrase, will entice almost every newcomer at FTR, because it promises an easy system to play good poker instead of all these confusing (though very truthful) "depends" you get. In practice however, I can't believe the 19 hands could help anyone beyond the stage of being so new that they don't even know simple hand values. There's a strategy article here on FTR about starting hands that already gives way more useful info than 19 simple starting hands.

About him not outright plugging his lessons. That's the great part of his post. No he doesn't say it outright, but the point of his post is simply "follow my lessons and you'll become a succesful poker player". Yes, he does make a very smooth trangression, starting from the topic at hand, then oozing into a story on this tangent, introducing the fact that he teaches, and finally closing with the idea that his lessons make great poker players.

To think that because he doesn't say it outright, he isn't just plugging his lessons is a bit naieve imho. This really is marketing 101.


Personally, whenever I see more eloquence than practical proof of expertise, in whatever field this may be, I'm always gonna be very skeptical.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I'm sorry but if thats what you believe then I just can't argue with that.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

SOME people know how to play any 2 cards (or sub-premium cards) for geniune profits. But they have alot more experience that you. So You shouldn't.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

The point here is that if you're going to be an idiot, do it with a big raise, not a stupid call.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I've stated my opinion, Jackvance stated it better, i'm not gonna continue in a huge spiral of controversy, i'm done. Take it for what its worth.

Originally Posted by Pelion

but I would also advise them to question everything they read here and to ask about it if they dont understand and argue if they disagree.

Originally Posted by jackvance

The guy asked how much he had to pay for lessons.

Originally Posted by jackvance

It should be obvious that if you can make a name for yourself, money will follow.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I mean, he's writing a book too isn't he? Probably not to hand it out for free.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And if u want the psychology behind my post, here it is - spark up debate. Yep thats it, period.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Without debate, noone gains anything.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Lamb, let me explain please..

I know there are no set in stone rules, so do you and so does Aok. But my point here is that when a beginner first starts off in poker without a clue it help him immensley to have some guidelines to follow so that he can float a bit. Thats all Aok does, dispense guidelines.

Consider this for a second. Lets say I'm teaching a new guy how to play and I tell him that every time he bets the flop and turnwith TPTK, gets called on the flop and raised on the turn - he should fold. Every time!! No exceptions. (This is because at low stakes being raised on the turn usually signifies that you're up against a set etc.) You probably think thats a horrible thing to tell a beginner. Your teachings for him would be full of "it depends" on a load of different things. Thats fair enough, you're right.. wheather he should fold or not does depend on loads of things...

BUT

If he does like I say and folds always will he miss out on a lot of value? Yes he will. Will he be beating the game optimally? No he wont. But over thousands of hands will that turn fold be a clear-cut easy to follow +EV guideline that he can build a solid, optimal poker game on? YES, thats what it is. Its a foundation to stop a beginner drowning in the deep end. You think for the rest of his life he will fold every TPTK hand he has when he gets raised on the turn card? No way, slowly but surely he'll see places and players where perhaps he shouldn't fold and his game will gradually improve and become more varied and "it depends" based and closer to optimal. But had he not had my guideline at the start he would have (probably) put some money in Party and lost it all because he had no clue wtf to do in which situation.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

If AOK truely believes his own advice why does he spent 50% of his post trying to enstill his own creditibility into the reader. All this serves to do is make the reader think that his advice is the end-all of advice.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I understand what you are saying Irish. However, there is a difference between the following two statements:

A. As a rule, when you have TPTK on the turn and you are raised, you are most likely beat, you should fold.

B. You have TPTK on the turn, your opp. raises you. At the stakes you are playing, this is a safe spot to fold without a very good read. Your opp. could have a set, or two pair. As you develop in your game, you may find that folding here is not the correct play. There are many situations where certain players will raise you here with hands you beat. However, until you have played enough hands to be able to spot these situations, it is a good idea for you to avoid marginal spots like this and find better spots to get your money in.

Do you see where I am going with this? Statement A locks a player into a way of thinking. Statement B inspires thought and theory at the same time as protecting the beginner from losing all of their money. My problem with AOK telling a beginner that as a rule if he wants to play a marginal hand in late position he should raise 10x then bet huge on the flop again, is that its written in format A. It doesn't tell the player why, it doesn't say how this gains value. Frankly I would like to know how, because the only hands calling you have you crushed.

Advice given in format A is very dangerous and when taken the wrong way, can hurt a player more than it helps. Advice given in format B develops a player's rational thinking and will help them in the long run.

Originally Posted by jackvance

There's not a shadow of a doubt he is making money off of poker lessons, one way or the other.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Irish, are you somehow affiliated with Aok?

Originally Posted by Xanadu

It's hard to avoid simple rules when first teaching/learning anything which requires a great deal of skill. Poker is like many other things, in that there are basic guidelines which are generally true, and need to be learned, but that have exceptions that can only be learned with experience. I think that the basic guidelines are a good thing, and when teaching a beginner, one should mention that there are exceptions that will be learned later. Teaching all the exceptions right away is just putting too much information on the table at once which can't effectively be used. A few examples from other games ...

In bridge, there are many guidelines that beginners are taught which are usually true but have many exceptions for expert play, such as

Cover an honor with an honor,
When in doubt draw trumps,
Always lead partner's suit.

In chess, one is taught to develop one's pieces as quickly as possible and control the center, but more advanced players learn when plays that take the initiative are superior to developing plays. Among many other exceptions to well known rules are that doubled pawns are not always weak, and rooks do not always belong on the open file.

I think it is wrong to teach simple rules as gospel truth. But I also think it is counter-productive to try to teach the beginner everything at once.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

It's hard to avoid simple rules when first teaching/learning anything which requires a great deal of skill. Poker is like many other things, in that there are basic guidelines which are generally true, and need to be learned, but that have exceptions that can only be learned with experience. I think that the basic guidelines are a good thing, and when teaching a beginner, one should mention that there are exceptions that will be learned later. Teaching all the exceptions right away is just putting too much information on the table at once which can't effectively be used. A few examples from other games ...

In bridge, there are many guidelines that beginners are taught which are usually true but have many exceptions for expert play, such as

Cover an honor with an honor,
When in doubt draw trumps,
Always lead partner's suit.

In chess, one is taught to develop one's pieces as quickly as possible and control the center, but more advanced players learn when plays that take the initiative are superior to developing plays. Among many other exceptions to well known rules are that doubled pawns are not always weak, and rooks do not always belong on the open file.

I think it is wrong to teach simple rules as gospel truth. But I also think it is counter-productive to try to teach the beginner everything at once.

Originally Posted by Pelion

You cant seriously be suggesting that someone who has decided to put in the time and effort to find FTR because he has decided to really get good at this game will develop a slightly profitable low stakes game and then just stop improving because when he first started he was told not to put his stack in with TPTK. Unless we are talking about someone who is seriously stupid to the point of not having a chance at this game anyway, ANYONE will throw the starting hand chart away at some point once they get comfortable enough with the basics.

Im betting a huge portion of FTR started playing with a starting hand chart telling them what to raise and what was ok to call preflop, and telling them that 2 pair was an ok hand postflop. Im guessing that many of you printed off a pot odds chart.
Id be very suprised if even a small minority of players who have been playing a year or more havnt started throwing in the odd hand or two off the chart by now.
I think a starting hand chart, and a pot odds chart would help anybody sitting in their first poker game. I also think you need to give people WAY more credit if you think they will stick rigidly to the chart for the rest of their life just because someone showed it to them once.

You start with solid rules and then over time you begin to develop a feel for when it is necessary to bend the rules. AOKs rules are clearly intended as a foundation. Thats why they are in the begginner forum.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Here is the problem, chess and other games are games of complete information, you have all the information available to you, rules can be made. Poker is a game of incomplete information, because you never have all of the information, you cannot set up rules.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Odd of you to disagree with me when I am supporting your view. I must disagree as I was speaking of rules for the beginner. Games like bridge, chess, and backgammon, and really any other game of skill are not games of complete information for the beginner, as the beginner does not have access to the complete information. Even a master chess player cannot foresee all the possible repercussions of a move. A beginning chess player has a tiny fraction of the total information available to him because of an incomplete understanding of the game. And I do believe that there are rules to follow in poker. It is a game of information, and making the correct decision on the information available. This does not change just because you can't see your opponent's cards.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I'm not a mod or nothing but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from blatently lying and fabricating information in these forums.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

AOK reminds me of a cult leader. He preaches to the naive and inexperienced.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

AOK reminds me of a cult leader. He preaches to the naive and inexperienced.