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At what point should I have folded?

  
 
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rong
Old 11-08-2009, 10:50 PM     Post subject: At what point should I have folded? #1 (permalink)  
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Villains stats were 19/19 over 16 hands, I had a serious run of good cards prior to this so my stats showed me as a major lagg, 44/44, which influenced my decision, as I had not been to a showdown in any of those hands (or possibly only one of them) so I thought villain was gonna be aggro with any part of this hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($8.13)
UTG+1 ($9.12)
MP1 ($1.10)
MP2 ($9.95)
MP3 ($9.38)
CO ($6.39)
Button ($10.43)
SB ($8.43)
BB ($5.68)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with ,
Hero bets $0.20, 5 folds, Button raises to $0.65, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.37) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.55, Hero calls $0.55

Turn: ($2.47) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.05, Hero calls $2.05

River: ($6.57) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $6.90, Hero calls $4.88 (All-In)

Total pot: $16.33 | Rake: $0.80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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Belt
Old 11-09-2009, 12:00 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I really am not a fan of calling a 3bet with AQo so I would fold pre.
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Dannyboy6
Old 11-09-2009, 01:23 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I have to agree with Belt, you just are never really in good shape vs a 3bet pre with AQo, try to learn to fold these so you don't end up running into these spots.
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Outlaw
Old 11-09-2009, 01:42 AM #4 (permalink)  
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AQ oop sucks, esp in micros in a 3bet pot. Consider folding pre.

As played, there is nothing wrong with a c/r on the flop to narrow his range.

Considering the history, I think he also comes along with worse hands. If you get reraised its an easy fold.. you save some dough.
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d0zer
Old 11-09-2009, 01:52 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
As played, there is nothing wrong with a c/r on the flop to narrow his range.
c/r'ing flop is pretty bad vs a relative unknown. Are you raising for value or as a bluff? If the answer is "I don't know", then we shouldn't be doing it. You're basically saying we should c/r flop for "information", which is not a legitimate reason to bloat the pot OOP, folding out worse hands.

But yes folding pre is pretty standard to avoid this spot in the first place.
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Kbryce23
Old 11-09-2009, 02:06 AM #6 (permalink)  
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I fold pre. As played I probably make a nitty fold on the turn. I just dont expect him to ever have AT here. At best your splitting IMO. As for you running 44/44 influencing your decison, people at the stakes are likely not paying attention to your stats.
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JKDS
Old 11-09-2009, 02:34 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbryce23
. As played I probably make a nitty fold on the turn.
i dont think its nitty at all.
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Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
 
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Stacks
Old 11-09-2009, 02:35 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Damnit.. I'm so tired of writing a huge response detailing just about everything in the hand, that whenever I do that, the thread just dies, and no further discussion ensues. So I did it again, and then deleted it .

Anyways, please, please, please refrain from alluding to the results in the thread title, or posting results etc. What do you get out of us knowing the results? "At what point should I have folded?" just lets us know that you believe you should have folded, in essence, telling us you lost the hand. This does not in any way aid to discussion, and if anything can take away from it by us assigning skewed ranged. Fwiw, this isn't just to you individually... It happened all the time in this forum, and I'm pretty damn tired of it, and if I wasn't procrastinating on a paper that is due tomorrow, I would have just responded with a troll post like "gotta know when to hold em, and when to fold em".

Anyways, fold preflop. You are a dog to his value 3betting range. You are UTG, and he is 3betting from the one place he could have absolute position in calling. 4bet/folding is poor because if he folds, then you were ahead. 4bet/calling is poor because you are likely never ahead of this guys stacking off range.

Calling preflop leads to building a larger pot OOP against a range in which you are a dog to. You have huge reverse implied odds postflop, leading to winning maybe 1 bet when ahead, and losing 1-3 when behind. Think what hands he 3bets that he would put in his stack with on a Q or A board, and see how you fair against that range (hint: you are a pretty massive dog).

So fold preflop.. Easily, it's uber standard here. Had this been a Button v Small Blind situation, then calling becomes much better than it is here, but still marginal depending on villain's 3betting tendencies.

As far as flop, check/calling is also uber standard. Doing anything else is just bad imo. Donking allows him to fold any of the bluffs that was in his range, and even some worse value hands you could have got a bet out of on later streets.

C/raising the flop is horrendous. Especially under the pretense of "narrowing his range". Any worse hand (QQ-KK, bluffs, etc) are very likely to fold to the c/raise. And in most cases, they have relatively little equity against you (QQ-KK have less than 10% equity). Better hands (JJ/AK/AA/AJ[unlikely in his range]) are obviously not folding. So a check/raise just builds a larger pot against a range you are massively behind.

On the turn, I woudln't consider anything other than check/call or check/fold. I'd say it's a check/fold, without too much hesitation. The river is just horrendous spew, and you are probably never ahead here. He's never valuebetting a worse hand. And he probably isn't bluffing either. So easy check/fold on the river.
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Donkafelts
Old 11-09-2009, 04:06 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I'd say fold pre since table image is so lagg. Any problem with this?
Fold turn if you like money.
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Stacks
Old 11-09-2009, 04:27 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkafelts
I'd say fold pre since table image is so lagg. Any problem with this?
Fold turn if you like money.
Well, most villains at these stakes aren't paying attention to table image. Same is true for non-regs at 100nl-200nl. They aren't usually just playing their cards, oblivious to ranges, image, etc.

However, if table image was considered, then it would probably make a call preflop less a mistake. If you are viewed as lagg, then correct opponents should open up their range when when in pots with you, especially in position. This would carry over into them 3betting a wider range for value against you.

Against a range of {JJ+, AK}, AQo only has 28% equity with pretty poor reverse implied odds. As we expand this range, to say {99+, AQ+}, then our equity obviously increases to 35%. It's not much, and I would assume our reverse implied odds stayed about the same. However, if opponents are adjusting correctly then they should be 3betting a 'LAGG' opponent with a wider range, thus giving us more equity. However, probably still not enough to make a call OOP here profitable.

Fold is, as has been said, pretty standard preflop. I'd also likely fold QQ and AK here as well, and not think to much about it .
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Micro2Macro
Old 11-09-2009, 07:02 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Even if you are 'lag' you don't need to worry about your utg opens being 3bet lightly, you are super crushed here no matter who you are which leads to a preflop folddd.
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rong
Old 11-09-2009, 10:41 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Anyways, please, please, please refrain from alluding to the results in the thread title, or posting results etc. What do you get out of us knowing the results? "At what point should I have folded?" just lets us know that you believe you should have folded, in essence, telling us you lost the hand. This does not in any way aid to discussion, and if anything can take away from it by us assigning skewed ranged. Fwiw, this isn't just to you individually...
Sorry, won't happen again (yes it will, but I will probably remember for a good while) but on review I thought this was an obvious fold, and it was just down to whether or not I should have folded before my origial bet, folded the the 3 bet or folded on the turn. It was only my laggy image that made me think I could justify the call.

Which brings me to my next point, should I be raising AQo from UTG in the first place? Just limp with it? (I don't like that at all) or fold straight away?

And thanks all for your responses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.
 
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Stacks
Old 11-09-2009, 11:05 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Opening AQo UTG at FR can probably be debated a bit. It really comes down to if it's profitable for you or not. "I" would open AQo UTG at 5nl, as I feel I would be profitable enough preflop and postflop against the villains at those stakes to make this initial open +EV. You may not. If I were playing say 200nl-400nl, I would probably not be opening it, as I feel my edge would be significantly lower, and therefore I would like to tighten up my EP range.

If you aren't open raising AQo, please do not limp with it. You should be limping exactly 0% of hands from UTG. As you move around the table, you should still be open limping exactly 0%. Depending on previous action, limping behind can be warranted, but it should typically be done with hands that have high implied odds, such as suited connectors, small-mid pocket pairs, and suited ace-rag. These are the hands that play well in a multiway pot, as they have the potential to make the most "nut" hand (flushes, sets, straights, etc). Hands like AQo typically fair betting a HU pot, one where the effective stack is smaller.
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Donkafelts
Old 11-11-2009, 06:56 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Sorry my post was very unclear i meant fold pre as in never open. We are looking at a marginally profitable situation at best with a higher chance of getting played back at due to our lagg image. Ie. Why raise the very bottom of our range that is questionable if it cant stand getting played back at when we are more likely to get played back at?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkafelts
I'd say fold pre since table image is so lagg. Any problem with this?
Fold turn if you like money.
Well, most villains at these stakes aren't paying attention to table image. Same is true for non-regs at 100nl-200nl. They aren't usually just playing their cards, oblivious to ranges, image, etc.

However, if table image was considered, then it would probably make a call preflop less a mistake. If you are viewed as lagg, then correct opponents should open up their range when when in pots with you, especially in position. This would carry over into them 3betting a wider range for value against you.

Against a range of {JJ+, AK}, AQo only has 28% equity with pretty poor reverse implied odds. As we expand this range, to say {99+, AQ+}, then our equity obviously increases to 35%. It's not much, and I would assume our reverse implied odds stayed about the same. However, if opponents are adjusting correctly then they should be 3betting a 'LAGG' opponent with a wider range, thus giving us more equity. However, probably still not enough to make a call OOP here profitable.

Fold is, as has been said, pretty standard preflop. I'd also likely fold QQ and AK here as well, and not think to much about it .
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Robb
Old 11-11-2009, 09:16 AM #15 (permalink)  
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I've been following along. I'll add one thing to stax's evaluation.

I would open AQo UTG because I'm generally ahead of the flat calling range my opp will have. Generally at these stakes, they 3b w/ AK, KK+ leaving me tied/ahead on Axx or Qxx boards when opp flats. I'm way behind most any 3b range, so I can comfortably open-fold-to-3b.

I also suggest cbetting very carefully with AQ when catching air. I play this fit-or-fold primarily, though some dry boards with lots of gaps between cards I will cbet on. Examples might include K73 2-suited, T42 rainbow or 942 rainbow. Any time I cbet air, I have to realize about the ONLY thing opp can continue with is an overpair to the board or a set, so I'm extremely unlikely to 2 barrel without a seriously good read.

As stax mentioned, I'm looking to pick up my 0 - 1 postflop bets when I'm likely to be ahead, and I'm ditching to any serious pressure.
 
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LawDude
Old 11-11-2009, 07:49 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
C/raising the flop is horrendous. Especially under the pretense of "narrowing his range". Any worse hand (QQ-KK, bluffs, etc) are very likely to fold to the c/raise. And in most cases, they have relatively little equity against you (QQ-KK have less than 10% equity). Better hands (JJ/AK/AA/AJ[unlikely in his range]) are obviously not folding. So a check/raise just builds a larger pot against a range you are massively behind.
Stacks is almost never wrong, and he's not wrong here. This is actually a big difference between limit and no limit, and one I am aware of keenly as a limit player.

If you check-raised this flop in a limit game, you wouldn't be spewy at all, because the check-raise doesn't cost you a lot of money, it does tend to buy you some useful information, and it doesn't commit you to the pot. Further, you can get lots of worse hands to call.

But in no limit, a check-raise on the flop in a raised pot pre-flop is costing you quite a bit of money and is putting you in a position where the hand becomes very hard to fold. It also makes you vulnerable to a bluff or semi-bluff re-raise from a player repping a stronger hand. And all you are really doing is folding out all your worse hands.

If you must be in this hand (and you shouldn't be), you want one of two things to happen-- (1) to be able to cheaply call with decent implied odds on improving your hand on the turn (2 pair would be really nice about now ) or (2) ideally, for villain to slow down and check the turn after his c-bet doesn't fold you out. If (2) happens, you have a much better chance of being ahead and even if you are behind, you have controlled the size of the pot so the hand isn't going to cost you as much money even if you end up calling or making 1 more bet.

Essentially, when you are behind a lot of the other guy's range and have little fold equity, you want to (1) control the size of the pot (and your potential losses / reverse implied odds), (2) if you are going to stay in the hand, give yourself some decent implied odds if you do improve, and (3) give your villain a chance to slow down so that you can take down a moderate size pot if you are actually ahead. Note that none of these options are all that attractive, as they all either involve losing money, winning a small amount of money, or getting really lucky and hitting a 3-outer. Which is why you shouldn't be calling 3 bets with AQ to begin with.
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spoonitnow
Old 11-11-2009, 09:30 PM #17 (permalink)  
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The title of this thread absolutely sucks because it gives results.
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Donkafelts
Old 11-12-2009, 12:31 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Thanks, cleared up my thought process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I've been following along. I'll add one thing to stax's evaluation.

I would open AQo UTG because I'm generally ahead of the flat calling range my opp will have. Generally at these stakes, they 3b w/ AK, KK+ leaving me tied/ahead on Axx or Qxx boards when opp flats. I'm way behind most any 3b range, so I can comfortably open-fold-to-3b.

I also suggest cbetting very carefully with AQ when catching air. I play this fit-or-fold primarily, though some dry boards with lots of gaps between cards I will cbet on. Examples might include K73 2-suited, T42 rainbow or 942 rainbow. Any time I cbet air, I have to realize about the ONLY thing opp can continue with is an overpair to the board or a set, so I'm extremely unlikely to 2 barrel without a seriously good read.

As stax mentioned, I'm looking to pick up my 0 - 1 postflop bets when I'm likely to be ahead, and I'm ditching to any serious pressure.
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