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littleogre
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12-27-2005, 09:16 AM
Post subject: What is the optimum amount to bet on a semi bluff ?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I am a fairly aggressive nl player and i usually always bet my good draws and my not so good ones ie gut shots if i think the other players will fold. For deception i play an oesd or flush draw the exact same way i play a made hand. As it is i usually go allin for maximum pressure . This gives me a high level of variance so thats the bad part. The good part is i get to see the next 2 cards regardless and it puts maximum fold pressure on my opponents and gets me payed off nicely when i make the same move with a strong made hand. My question is what is actually the optimum amount to bet in ralation to pot size in those situations. I feel that i could get the desired effect with a smaler bet but i don't want to go to small and elimanate any chance of my opponent folding or even worse make them feel obligated to raise back at me.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Post examples?
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok the site i currently play at doesn't offer hand histories but i will give you an example of a situation i find myself in all the time.
this is a hand from earlier tonight but i will am forced to type it out.
Me ace/5 clubs in middle positon 2 players limp in front of me. I limp and it is folded around to the bb who checks.
flop
8c/6c/4h
giving me the nut flush draw. Assuming you want to semi bluff your draw what is the best amount to bet .
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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The optimum amount obviously depends on the player.
If you are against a thinking player this may be a fairly small amount because you need to represent a hand that beats him and a hand that beats him would want to get paid a bit.
If you are up against someone who will call a small bet no matter what they hold, just because it is small then you need to overbet the pot.
If you are against an opponent who is a calling station then you need to give up on semibluffing and wait until the draw comes before you bet it HARD.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok what if the player is smart enough to fold bad draws and understands a little about pot odds but will never fold top pair but will fold middle pair or worse to a large over bet.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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against a thinking player your bets need to be consistant.
You need to bet how ever much you would bet with a decent top pair type hand. If you bet one size for a semi-bluff and another size for a made hand they will pick up on it and you will be in trouble.
I tend to make them between 3/4 pot and full pot against thinking players and dont usually bother at all against unthinking players because i dont think they will fold anyway.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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DaHorror
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 616
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These types of bets depend a lot on position and action before you as well. In your example it's an obvious standard 2/3 - 3/4 pot bet as you indicated no action before you and you have an inside straight draw, nut flush draw, and an overcard...and with no action A hi is not unlikely to be the best hand there anyway - plus you want to build the pot in the event that you hit as you are not likely to be paid off for the flush except by a lower flush or a calling station.
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SinkRox
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 624
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The great thing about NL is you can threaten an opponents full stack, without actually putting your whole stack on the line.
Any wager makes the opponent think about how much they may have to invest to see the hand thru. Just betting 2/3 or the pot at the flop and turn, or re-raising 2-3x the pot at the flop can put pressure on for their whole stack.
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Experimenting - 200NL 5max.
"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SinkRox
Any wager makes the opponent think about how much they may have to invest to see the hand thru.
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Even at the 100NL level, most of the field still can't think that far ahead. Makes it really easy to get it all-in against them when you want to.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SinkRox
Any wager makes the opponent think about how much they may have to invest to see the hand thru.
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Even at the 100NL level, most of the field still can't think that far ahead. Makes it really easy to get it all-in against them when you want to. |
This is why when you're in the blinds with a hand like A8, and the flop comes out ace high, you sometimes fold to a pot sized bet on the flop from a solid player. It will cost too much to show down a bad kicker.
As for going all in with a draw in cash game for maximum pressure, you either have fold equity or you don't. Very little is gained by an all in vs a pot sized bet in most cases. In fact, sometimes the all in gets LESS respect. I will bet a draw like top pair if I decide to be aggressive with it.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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It all depends on my position, the types of players still in, and my table presence. My favorite situation is as follows:
Axs in late position with straight flush draw checked to me. Bet the living shit out of the pot.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I am always consistant between my bluff s and real hand raises but i usually just shove all in post flop wether i am bluffing with a strong draw or already have a monster hand. Also something completly of subject low limit nl players are scared to death of trips and can be easily bluffed if the board pairs.
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