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DubRod
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09-01-2006, 07:39 AM
Post subject: What makes a good cash game player?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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Hey.
I was just wondering what makes for a good cash game player at stakes 100NL and up compared to lower limits.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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hand reading ability. it takes hundreds of thousands of hands to be an awesome hand reader though.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Lots of aces, PP's, and nice flops.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Consistency. In order to make a lot of money you must play a style that you can consistently repeat. Even the most undesirable of situations must have "standard" solutions. You must be able to tap into your memory bank of "standard" solutions at any time, without really having to think about it.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Consistency. In order to make a lot of money you must play a style that you can consistently repeat. Even the most undesirable of situations must have "standard" solutions. You must be able to tap into your memory bank of "standard" solutions at any time, without really having to think about it.
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can this be paraphrased to
flop sets
get paid ?
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dan
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 288
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hand reading, aggressive play, no respect for dough yo!
good understanding of position, good table selection, able to change gears.
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johnnyBuz
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philly, Pa
Posts: 462
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dan
hand reading, aggressive play, no respect for dough yo!
good understanding of position, good table selection, able to change gears.
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table selection is what i need to work on. sometimes i join full tables of half full stacks and half shorties ($10-15 at 25NL) and just tear the table up and double my buyin without even really trying to make money.
then i'll play at a table full of full stacks and have the toughest time just winning a $3 pot. then i'll usually go busto going all in preflop or on the flop and getting bad beat but that's besides the point.
so i think i need to start joining tables with half full stacks and half shorties more consistently, no?
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Liter of cola.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Understanding implied odds completely, seeing a lot of flops cheap, applying pressure constantly, and making big laydowns against reasonable ranges. In a nutshell.
Hand reading ability puts you over the top. Play half a million hands and get back to me.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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DubRod
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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Well I have been really trying to apply myself in reading hands. Started by playing less tables at a time to focus on detail and it is starting to pay off in alot of situations. For one it has made some big laydowns easier and in turn saved me money. It also helped me identify c-bets and pot buying alot.
Table selection is one thing I have to apply myself more.
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apunisher
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 398
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Consistency. In order to make a lot of money you must play a style that you can consistently repeat. Even the most undesirable of situations must have "standard" solutions. You must be able to tap into your memory bank of "standard" solutions at any time, without really having to think about it.
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can this be paraphrased to
flop sets
get paid ? |
lol
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dan
hand reading, aggressive play, no respect for dough yo!
good understanding of position, good table selection, able to change gears.
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table selection is what i need to work on. sometimes i join full tables of half full stacks and half shorties ($10-15 at 25NL) and just tear the table up and double my buyin without even really trying to make money.
then i'll play at a table full of full stacks and have the toughest time just winning a $3 pot. then i'll usually go busto going all in preflop or on the flop and getting bad beat but that's besides the point.
so i think i need to start joining tables with half full stacks and half shorties more consistently, no? |
No. Ideally youd find a table full of full stacks that are all horrible.
Table selection is a huge part of the game that most people simply ignore. Good table selection skills easily can have a hug impact on your winrate and there is no reason you shouldnt practice it. It can make a losing game or breakeven game into a winning one without any change in skill.
I agree with the things people said here, the general ones like consistency and the more specific ones like hand reading. Going even more general I think the key is really dedication, you need to want to improve and actually apply yourself, if you dont you are just going to be treading water.
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DubRod
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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One generality that has really improved my game is ''Attitude''. I believe having a positive attitude towards your game and reminding yourself of your short and long term goals is a good way to help you prevent going off track. This in turn implies having good discipline on the felt and towards your bankroll management.
also: How to pick a good table? Avg. Pot, Avg players on flop, hands per hour?
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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Table selection hits home for me. I have OK ability to fold, read and use position/aggression etc, but sitting at great seats and tables is a big reason I'm a big winner (so far..) in 100nl. But I bet as you get to higher levels where there's more skill and fewer players, the other skills are more important.
DubRod, this is a good thread - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-36159.htm I'll try writing what I do though...the first thing is look for people on my "buddy list" (on hollywood, I mark them with a green dot and scroll the tables lists). If they're on (preferably fully stacked), I get a seat to their left so I have position. If I can't get in on those tables or they aren't around, then I look at the average pot sizes and players/flop, the more the better...but if one table has high stats except all stacks are small, I go for the tables with big stacks.
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Quote:
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also: How to pick a good table? Avg. Pot, Avg players on flop, hands per hour?
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I sort by avg. players on flop and then look for the biggest average pot size in that group. Tables where 60% of the players are seeing flops are generally really easy to beat if you have any fundamental poker skills like raising preflop, etc.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Renton's table selection:
Join all of the 2/4 10-max tables on party poker.
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The Izebox
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: bronx new york
Posts: 255
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or any other table on party- poker. LOL
What a terrible (great) site!
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Me? I always tell the truth.
Even when I lie.
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dioufy77
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 31
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i would have thought a very good ability at reading opponents, being unpredicatble and being able to remain calm under pressure. a sufficient bankroll for the stakes aswell will propably help!
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NEVERSCURRED
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1
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Alot of what is being said is true, but you have to relate it to the limits that you play at... 2/4 and under, most of the skills that everyone has listed is a bit overrated. We should all be able to beat the lower stakes by playing simple ABC style poker... Why play a high level strategy with players that think on a low level???
Low stakes poker is boring and profitable for that very reason (players that think on a low level.) I would love to make fancy plays at the limits I play, but it's not profitable when your opponents can't read the board...
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hachkc
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 18
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My thoughts on a good cash player for NL online:
1. Patience especially if you have a lot of tournament experience.
2. PT or PO for tracking and profiling online opponents along with a good hud. It can take awhile to build up a good db but its worth it.
3. Know your pot odds and more importantly implied odds. Implied odds requires some knowledge of your opponents to be successful.
4. Don't just play strong hands that can win but play strong hands that can win a players stack. Obviously any PP is playable to just about any reasonable raise for this reason depending on the stack that backs it up.
5. Money is made in sets (and full houses from improved sets) and str8s. Flushes while strong are harder to get paid off on so implied odds generally are not very high on them like they are with str8s and sets.
6. Big pots need big hands (not my quote). Any pair, TP, TPTK, and any overpair (debatable) are not a big hand so don't get married to them.
7. Bankroll Mgmt - Don't be afraid to lose your stack on hand just make sure when you do, you can reload and keep playing. Playing tight with a short stack isn't a bad way to start.
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KrazyBluffer
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 74
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Good cash game player:
#1) Game selection.
#2) Game selection.
#3) Game selection.
#4) Patience
#5) Discipline
#6) Playing Short Stacked * (works for me)
I'm up almost 6 1/2 FULL Stacks in my last 1000 hands of 25NL playing SHORT stacked !!!
($160)
Plan on trying 50 NL today shortstacked will see how it goes.
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hachkc
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 18
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer
I'm up almost 6 1/2 FULL Stacks in my last 1000 hands of 25NL playing SHORT stacked !!!
($160)
Plan on trying 50 NL today shortstacked will see how it goes.
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My typical buyin for a NL table is around 60 big blinds. I've been consistently profitable at NL over the last 31k hands with this approach.
As for 1,000 hands, sounds like a heater and its too small of a sample to mean much.
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KrazyBluffer
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 74
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Quote:
My typical buyin for a NL table is around 60 big blinds. I've been consistently profitable at NL over the last 31k hands with this approach.
As for 1,000 hands, sounds like a heater and its too small of a sample to mean much.
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It is a heater!!! I finally got one cuz I'm sick of grinding it out all the time lol
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hachkc
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 18
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer
Quote:
My typical buyin for a NL table is around 60 big blinds. I've been consistently profitable at NL over the last 31k hands with this approach.
As for 1,000 hands, sounds like a heater and its too small of a sample to mean much.
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It is a heater!!! I finally got one cuz I'm sick of grinding it out all the time lol |
I had one going last night at FTP, bought in for $30 at 2 $50NL tables and in an about 90mins was upto $210 or so between the 2 of them. Too bad I dropped a $60 buyin at a $100NL table during the same but clear $20 at another $100NL table.
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bearcats05
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 336
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if you would have bought in full you would have won a lot more...
there is no point in buying in for 30 at 50nl. if you cant buy in for 50 go play 25nl
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Chris4tw
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 30
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Game selection isn't very big in my book. I just go to the table with biggest avg. pot with a high percentage of people seeing the flop.
Playing as a short stack I feel is for weak players. It severely limits your type of play and doesn't allow you to win money on your big hands.
I've stacked people with full stacks at 200NL before. If I brought in $120 instead of $200, I just lost $80. Very pointless.
I'm all for patience and discipline, but I would stack off against certain people with TPTK. Some people are big fish, and you must realize that. Don't limit yourself to one strategy. It should change everytime depending on the table.
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bearcats05
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chris4tw
Game selection isn't very big in my book. I just go to the table with biggest avg. pot with a high percentage of people seeing the flop.
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you dont have to get really picky but making sure you are at a good table and have a good seat at that table can make a big difference
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Chris4tw
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 30
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I think there is a need to make a distinction between table selection and seat selection. I get more picky when it comes where I am going to sit.
If I'm OOP on some crazy guy or a massive deep stack, I look for a different seat. Likewise, I always try to get position on a deep stack.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Cocaine.
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30%
Still looking for my royal flush.
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Barry5
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: London
Posts: 33
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
Cocaine.
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Nice sensible addition to the debate NOT.
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Barry5
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
Cocaine.
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Nice sensible addition to the debate NOT. |
This is gotti's best post to date, it made me LOL, and I could actually imagine it being true for some people.
And the obvious answer to the OP is "www.flopturnriver.com".
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Margin Of Error
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ripjohngotti
Cocaine.
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poty
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She looked at me and said youz a baby right?
I told her, I'm 18 and live a crazy life
Plus I'll tell you what the 80's like
And I know what ladies like
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rusticity
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5
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So we have game selection and position already mentioned, but I'll be a bit more specific, or atleast more specific to me.
"The ability to find the one player at the table worse than you."
This is even an extrapolation of the Rounders opening quote, "If you can't spot the fish, you're him". Well spot the fish and take his money. After he busts, it might be time to leave. Suck it up and move on, don't try to outplay those better than you.
On a personal level, it's very clear, I'm not a good player, but as long as I can find someone worst willing to mix it up with me, I can be a winning player.
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homeboy604
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 121
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almost never slow playing.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by homeboy604
almost never slow playing.
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QFT
I also think a good NL cash game player needs to have some limit experience. Reason being it helps you identify bluffs. I think natural limit players playing NL are superior bluff snappers. It has helped me immmensely.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I also think a good NL cash game player needs to have some limit experience. Reason being it helps you identify bluffs. I think natural limit players playing NL are superior bluff snappers. It has helped me immmensely.
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Could you elaborate on this Rondavu?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I also think a good NL cash game player needs to have some limit experience. Reason being it helps you identify bluffs. I think natural limit players playing NL are superior bluff snappers. It has helped me immmensely.
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Could you elaborate on this Rondavu? |
Well one good example would be the fact that most exclusive NL players don't call down enough with AK AQ high when they're ahead. Limit gives you a better understanding of showdown value in wishy washy pots. I push people off ace high all the time in NL. It's a loophole in the overall meta game IMO.
One very interesting aside to this, is a couple times I found people willing to do this, and value bet them on the river with bottom pair. Of course this is relationship based, and it gave me more fold equity against this opponent in those spots. Respect was gained on both sides however.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Turska
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 254
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I have problem with calling down bluffs because
at my level 25PL/50NL players change so much.
So I dont find very much value doing so.
I mean betting/calling mid pair against fish/maniac is
not bluff its for value 
I have noticed that regular sharks in this level
respect each other very much and dont get into
marginal situations. When regulars do battle
they are usually set vs set or AA vs KK situations.
But if I call regular PF raise with AQ off and I dont
hit the flop I usually fold to his Cbet.
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