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Revolver123
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02-27-2009, 04:18 AM
Post subject: What hands do you call PF raises with?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 123
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That's a pretty general question so I'm going to narrow it down.
Let's say MP2-Button makes a PF raise. You have no reads. You are in the SB or BB. I want to limit the hands you might have to the following: QJo, QJs, KQo, KQs, AJo, AQo. These are all tough hands for me to play and I always consider folding them to a prior raise.
Looking at poker tracker, KQo, QJo, AQo and AJo are all in the negative for me. Both blinds are in the negative as well. QJs is up slightly, KQs is up nicely.
I need some help on how to play these hands. I cringe when I see QJo and KQo especially. Would you throw them away to a prior raise without any reads that the villain is loose? Or would you flat call and then c/f the flop?
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POKEMONS
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 38
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Of course the answer as always is it depends. As a default though I pretty much always fold QJo, KJo here. I would also advise folding KQo, QJs, and AJo, although I def spew WAY too many chips calling raises with these types of hands. I play 6-max but I will usually 3bet both KQs and AQo to a CO/BTN raise.
One thing I think should be stressed here though is that you should rarely be cold-calling with these hands in the blinds.
As for your poker tracker results I'm pretty much the same way except for the fact that AQo is in the black for me. This might just be a 6-max / FR thing though. Offsuit broadways are just such failures of hands in NL cash imo. Of course, a lot of this probably has to due with the fact that I suck but I have yet to come even close to turning a profit with KQo/KJo/QJo/AJo.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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There's a huge difference between MP2 open raising and the CO or Button open raising.
Now we al know it depends, but since this is a general question I'll give a general answer. Generally, when facing an open raise from a player on the CO or Button (assuming a 'standard' player), all of those hands you listed are playable.
It changes when a 'standard player' opens in earlier positions though.
But like, let's say you have history on someone, and they're a 5/2 rock-donk with an ATS of 1% (lol). All those hands become unplayable because all of them are severely dominated and your oop to someone who never steals.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Revolver123
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 123
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
There's a huge difference between MP2 open raising and the CO or Button open raising.
Now we al know it depends, but since this is a general question I'll give a general answer. Generally, when facing an open raise from a player on the CO or Button (assuming a 'standard' player), all of those hands you listed are playable.
It changes when a 'standard player' opens in earlier positions though.
But like, let's say you have history on someone, and they're a 5/2 rock-donk with an ATS of 1% (lol). All those hands become unplayable because all of them are severely dominated and your oop to someone who never steals.
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I sound like a broken record here but this would mostly apply to 50NL and above. At 5NL and 10NL which I play (my BR is at 200 and I'm in an up/down transition cycle) we have players raising with absolute crap or raising with marginal hands such as KTo in MP1. Sometimes you see people that know what they're doing and play tight in certain positions and then open up their range in the CO or button. But for the most part at micros, it's "I have KJo, I'm raising" regardless if they are UTG or Button.
Quote:
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As for your poker tracker results I'm pretty much the same way except for the fact that AQo is in the black for me. This might just be a 6-max / FR thing though. Offsuit broadways are just such failures of hands in NL cash imo. Of course, a lot of this probably has to due with the fact that I suck but I have yet to come even close to turning a profit with KQo/KJo/QJo/AJo.
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I feel the same way. I don't even like seeing AKo. I was thinking about becoming super tight at the micros and only playing TT+, pocket pairs for set value, and maybe suited connectors/gaps in certain spots since I'm losing so much money with QJo-AQo. But then I'd be missing out on a learning experience; I need to learn how to play these hands properly. Not to mention it will be hard to play AA profitably if everyone is running poker tracker and sees I'm super tight.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Revolver123
I sound like a broken record here but this would mostly apply to 50NL and above. At 5NL and 10NL which I play (my BR is at 200 and I'm in an up/down transition cycle) we have players raising with absolute crap or raising with marginal hands such as KTo in MP1. Sometimes you see people that know what they're doing and play tight in certain positions and then open up their range in the CO or button. But for the most part at micros, it's "I have KJo, I'm raising" regardless if they are UTG or Button. |
Ok I see where you're coming from here. What your trying to say is most players at low stakes aren't positionally aware, therefore they don't understand that playing hands like KT in EP won't be as profitable as playing it in LP. This is very true. However, if you're not sure of the range your facing, it's probably best to fold the trouble hands you mentioned when out of position until you get some stats/reads on them. If an unknown opens from late postition though I tend to defend my blinds lighter than if an unknown opens in MP1. If you have no history, you can't be sure whether they're opening a tight or loose range, but after 3 orbits or so you'll begin to get a sense about whether they're tight or loose.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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QJo is an easy fold. Depending on stack sizes QJs is a call. Most of these others are calls except for maybe AJo. I have a hard time playing this OOP and it isn't a hand that plays well when you don't have the initiative in the hand.
KQ is a pretty easy call for me (suited or non) Many people are raising worse K's often enough to make it profitable. KJo and KJs are both folds for me the majority of the time unless there are 2 or 3 callers in front, its just not worth it.
My calling range would include (in the blinds) 22+, AQo+, KQo+ QJs+
That is a tight enough range that you should be ahead the majority of the time vs. a villain's raising range, and they are all hands that can connect reasonably well with the flop.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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When I don't have any reads, I tend to put raisers on a tight range. I figure that a mistake in that direction is less costly than a mistake in the direction of putting in lots of chips when I am behind in a hand.
I will, however, sometimes relax the range a bit if the play looks suspiciously like a blind steal.
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