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smitts187

11-29-2008, 04:44 PM Post subject: what to grind?

#1 (permalink)

Straight

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i have a 75$ br, on pokerstars, what do you suggest is the most profitable way to grind? sngs? mtts? cash?

what stakes should i be playing with 75$?

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AFchung

11-29-2008, 05:14 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

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probably cash games. have you played a lot before? if you have go for 5 NL. and if you want to play it safe, there's nothing wrong with playing 2NL overrolled

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

Illfavor

11-29-2008, 05:18 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

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I started out with the same amount and played SnGs, and built it up to $650 in around 3 months of occasional play, but if I could go back and I would start at .01/.02NL full ring. SnGs really kinda suck and it's much more fun to play ring and you learn so much more. It's a slow grind, but if you follow spoons BR bonus/rakeback plan you should be a very good player eventually.

Ich grolle nicht...

smitts187

11-29-2008, 05:24 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

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i believe im an above average player, ive been playing for awhile,

but lost my job so i need to start grinding hard

in the past i have won 3 large field MTTS

.25c 3700 entries

215$ (play chip) 1600 entries

and 2 days ago i played a 1.10 2300 entries and took first

MTTs are my favourite, but i want to maximise profits

oskar

11-29-2008, 05:45 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Get a job!

Pizza delivery is more profitable than small-stakes poker.
It can take months if you have never built a serious roll before. - and that is provided that you learn fast, stick to BR management and don't donk off your roll in one night of tilt. If you're already a winning player at 50NL+ - even then you're better off just making some cash on the side with poker.

smitts187

11-29-2008, 05:52 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

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i had 10$ 5 days ago, now i have 400, but i cashed 300 and sold 25 to my friend

so im looking to build that up too

so the question stands, what stakes and what style of game should i play to maximise profits?

TheRedEyeJedi13

11-29-2008, 06:01 PM

#7 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 30

multi-tabling cash games with rakeback?
i think its still profitable playing really nitty at the lower levels.
and of course stick to br management rules.

AFchung

11-29-2008, 06:03 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

so the question stands, what stakes and what style of game should i play to maximise profits?

if you're playing for more than a hobby, but to make income (as stated in original post), you're going to need a much much much bigger bankroll than $75

$75 is like a beginner's roll to learning poker

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

smitts187

11-29-2008, 06:05 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

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what size br do u suggest to start with to make an income?

AFchung

11-29-2008, 06:17 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

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Quote:

Originally Posted by smitts187

what size br do u suggest to start with to make an income?

proper bankroll management would be around 20x buyins for whatever level you are playing

i personally know of a friend who goes to school and spends nearly all his free time grinding out 25NL. i've seen his graphs and he crushes those limits but as far as making actual money goes, it's not really enough imo unless you're living on minimal expenses. i'd say that you need at least 100NL or play a lot of 50NL.

if you decide to play 50NL, about $1000 is probably a safe start.

not to mention variance, tilt, and losing motivation to play lol. it's fun to grind when you enjoy the game, but when you're doing it as a job it's a lot different

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

Stacks

11-29-2008, 06:18 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

Get a job!

Pizza delivery is more profitable than small-stakes poker. If you're already a winning player at 50NL+ - even then you're better off just making some cash on the side with poker.

Are you sure about these statements? Or would micro-stakes poker be a better word here (and even then it's close at the higher end of micro)?

Stacks

11-29-2008, 06:34 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Smitts_lgp? If so, you first need to stop berating fish.

.

Second, poker is essentially an investment. And your roll isn't just money, it's a way of making money. The smaller your roll the less money you will make. So by cashing out that $300 and dropping your roll from $400 (10nl worthy) back down to $75 (2nl), you are costing yourself money already.

The stakes you need to play to pay the bills obviously depends on your living expenses, etc. I'm a lowly college student that doesn't spend more than $600 per month. Because of that I was able to start cashing out $1k per month or so from my 100nl winnings, and still have enough to move up rather quickly. I know a good bit of people that make a good sum of money at 50nl, but it will take a decent amount of hands and planning if you intend to keep your roll building at the same time you are withdrawing to pay the bills (So you don't get stuck at just grinding the month and having to withdraw all your profit).

In terms of how much you can expect to make at a certain stakes, that depends on your winrate and volume of play. For a few examples really quickly let's look at a player who plays 12 tables of Full Ring at a 3ptbb/100 winrate (which is a respectable winrate, but can easily be higher at the micros).

12 tables = ~700 hands per hour

10nl @ 3ptbb/100 = $0.60/100 = $4.20/hr
25nl @ 3ptbb/100 = $1.50/100 = $10.50/hr
50nl @ 3ptbb/100 = $3.00/100 = $21.00/hr
100nl @ 3ptb/100 = $6.00/100 = $42.00/hr
200nl @ 3ptb/100 = $12.00/100 = $84.00/hr

So assuming you can put in a substantial amount of volume you can probably live off of even 25nl rather well. But because you would withdraw it would hinder your progress of moving up and making a much more profitable hourly rate.

Starting with your BR, skill level, volume potential (assuming you are smitts_lgp I remember you played 1 table), it is going to be incredibly difficult for you to turn a respectable profit in the very near future. If you have time on your hands, and a good work ethic, you can be at 100nl (starting from $75) in a matter of only a few months.

Stacks

11-29-2008, 07:06 PM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...74.html#727474

hmmm... Wonder how long it took me to write all these responses. And what I could have done that might have been more productive. :sigh:

HarleyGuy13

11-29-2008, 07:15 PM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

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Damn I can't find the post I read a few weeks back ( I read it a few weeks back it may have been much older) but it was a great breakdown how to grind through. I talked about which sites to play until you hit certain levels and when to start getting RB etc.

XxStacksxX do you know the one I am referring to? I've tried to find it for myself recently but have been unable. It may even be a sticky somewhere???

"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it

daven

11-29-2008, 07:35 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitts187

what size br do u suggest to start with to make an income?

i read quite a long time ago that you shouldn't go pro until you'd made your first $10k playing poker. At the time I thought that was ludicrous, but I now agree.

If you are withdrawing from poker to live, then you won't be building your bankroll much while you're playing the micros. Which means you may end up stuck micro-grinding a long time - and when a downswing hits you're in trouble.

A few questions:
What income do you want/need?
What experience do you have to date, at what stakes, and with what results?
How easily/quickly could you find a job that would cover your costs of living? how much time would that leave you to play poker (assuming working minimum hrs to generate essential life $ only - not trying to save etc) ?
How many tables are you proficient in multi-tabling?
How long can your savings support you if it all goes pear shaped?

also - what stax said is all good.
a crappy player who can barely beat $100nl but can grind and gets ok rakeback can clear $2k a month fairly easily - but, huge but, they need to be playing off at least a $4k roll while doing so.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Stacks

11-29-2008, 07:45 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Yeah I know the guide you speak of.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t74689.html

OP, sorry but Spoonitnow is the poster of the guide. Maybe look past who wrote it and learn from it.

However, this will likely not fit OP's needs. He sounds as if he is somewhat in a hurry to make money ("Just lost my job and need to grind hard!"). And well unfortunately it takes time and effort to go from $75 to an amount you can grind and live on.

spoonitnow

11-29-2008, 08:03 PM

#17 (permalink)

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This thread has just got to be bait to see if I'll troll a BC thread. Nice try Xianti, but I'm onto you buddy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

HarleyGuy13

11-29-2008, 08:54 PM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Oregon

Posts: 1,226

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Yeah I know the guide you speak of.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t74689.html

OP, sorry but Spoonitnow is the poster of the guide. Maybe look past who wrote it and learn from it.

However, this will likely not fit OP's needs. He sounds as if he is somewhat in a hurry to make money ("Just lost my job and need to grind hard!"). And well unfortunately it takes time and effort to go from $75 to an amount you can grind and live on.

LOL....

oskar

11-29-2008, 09:02 PM

#19 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2008

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Posts: 2,452

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

Get a job!

Pizza delivery is more profitable than small-stakes poker. If you're already a winning player at 50NL+ - even then you're better off just making some cash on the side with poker.

Are you sure about these statements? Or would micro-stakes poker be a better word here (and even then it's close at the higher end of micro)?

Yes because you can rely on pizza delivery money. You'll always get the same amount each month, and you know how much you need to work to cover the rent, food and other expenses. Even if you expect to make $20/hr - there will be moths where you stay break even, and you need a big enough buffer financially to not go broke during these times.
And you need the discipline to keep working in months where you are far ahead of your expectations.

smitts187

11-29-2008, 09:02 PM

#20 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: ontario canada

Posts: 161

Quote:

A few questions:
What income do you want/need?
What experience do you have to date, at what stakes, and with what results?
How easily/quickly could you find a job that would cover your costs of living? how much time would that leave you to play poker (assuming working minimum hrs to generate essential life $ only - not trying to save etc) ?
How many tables are you proficient in multi-tabling?
How long can your savings support you if it all goes pear shaped?

A few questions:
What income do you want/need?

average 300$ a week, 1200$ a month would be sufficient to live off, more would be good, but not needed

What experience do you have to date, at what stakes, and with what results?

i have a bit of experience, only with small micro stakes, but i am a winning player at the 2nl 5nl, i have played 10nl, and did fairly well but then decided it was a bad idea and dropped back to 5nl

also aabove average on micro MTTs

How easily/quickly could you find a job that would cover your costs of living? how much time would that leave you to play poker (assuming working minimum hrs to generate essential life $ only - not trying to save etc) ?

probably not hard to find the job, but it would limit my poker playing time drasticly from no time restraint to a couple hoursa day at most

How many tables are you proficient in multi-tabling?

4-5
How long can your savings support you if it all goes pear shaped?

i also planned on applying for unemployment, it would give me a guaranteed paycheck biweekly enough to support my living expenses, and would leave my day free to play poker

(any people i have argued with in the past, lets let it be water under the bridge, i have moved on, am seeking the proper advice, and ready to make a steady increase in my br)

spoonitnow

11-29-2008, 10:14 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Highlights of this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitts187

i had 10$ 5 days ago, now i have 400, but i cashed 300 and sold 25 to my friend

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitts187

i believe im an above average player, ive been playing for awhile, but lost my job so i need to start grinding hard

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitts187

probably not hard to find the job, but it would limit my poker playing time drasticly from no time restraint to a couple hoursa day at most... i also planned on applying for unemployment, it would give me a guaranteed paycheck biweekly enough to support my living expenses, and would leave my day free to play poker

Here's your play:

Step 1: Get a job ASAP. This step should take less than a week.
Step 2: While working at that job, grind up your $75 and don't withdraw until you get it to $10k and are beating 200nl or 400nl. This will likely take 6-8 months.

smitts187

11-29-2008, 11:50 PM

#22 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: ontario canada

Posts: 161

job is in progress i contacted an old employer, hoping to get back in, do you think i could reach the goal of 10k br in 8 months? honest opinion?(i am 4 tabling 2nl, winning consistant so far...play is terrible)

Stacks

11-29-2008, 11:56 PM

#23 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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It's easily achievable if you put in the volume and work to get better.

smitts187

11-30-2008, 12:12 AM

#24 (permalink)

Straight

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well im 100% willing, i will do it

Stacks

11-30-2008, 12:18 AM

#25 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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What's your first step to getting better at poker?

smitts187

11-30-2008, 12:26 AM

#26 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: ontario canada

Posts: 161

well i just downloaded a file with like 25 poker e-books in it, i will study them,
and keep grinding 4 tabl 2nl

i also want to get a pokertracker program, not PT3 i cant afford that right now, but maybe a 1 month subscription to somewhere?
any ideas what software would helpe me record my stats??

daven

11-30-2008, 02:10 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by smitts187

job is in progress i contacted an old employer, hoping to get back in, do you think i could reach the goal of 10k br in 8 months? honest opinion?

re the job - good!

re 10k in 8 months - well i did it in just a little longer than that i think (i started at 5nl with $200), and stax is either there or close from starting with $7 or something? it's possible - you never know unless you try...

advice - listen to everything the successful regs say - people like nuts, spenda, drew, i should stop listing cos i'll miss people out - but two more that jump out = fnord and spoon. and realise you'll often be wrong..... argue out your thought processes, and don't take any of it personally!

re stats etc - get the free trial version of hem. That's become the standard, and it doesn't fall over like PT3 does

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

OhBollocks

11-30-2008, 11:02 AM

#28 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: Dublin

Posts: 240

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ISF

Nothing actually changes in a poker game besides equity....
When we can maximize our equity, we will make lots and lots of money.

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