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redflea13
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03-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Post subject: What to do when your raises don't make anyone lay down hands
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
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I'm @ paradise playing .25/.50 and I raised AK off the BB and 8 out of 10 called to see the flop, yes, 8 people put in a dollar. The one who won the hand had 9 10 and caught 9's on the flop. But should I even bother raising premiium hands like this when obviously no one is folding? Also, what hands should I play at a table like this?
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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When no one folds to ur raises and bets, stop bluffing and bet/raise your goods. Raise AK cuz these guys will pay u moniez w/ A3o and KTs and other junk when one of ur cards hit. Just dont bluff them, dont try to make plays and dont bluff them. Then u should better not bluff and therefore go for full 3 streets of value with midpairTK+.
Oh did I tell u not to bluff?  [/quote]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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mentheretard
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10
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there are better sites
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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I think part of the question involves a little different strategy. Ask yourself this... with a premium hand like AK are you raising to encourage only calls or to encourage people that your hand is strong enough they shouldn't consider facing you?
If 8/10 players called your raise, they all either think you have nothing, have a low something, or are bluffing. That means one of two things, either your raise worked, and you are getting the action you are requesting, or your raise failed to scare anyone.
But hey, I'm a noob.
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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8 people called you with worse hands? I fail to see the problem.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Unibomber14
8 people called you with worse hands? I fail to see the problem.
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Ah uni, maybe that is why we are beginners. I agree that in the long run you want the action, but that opens you up to too many draws that can beat you. In the ultimate world I'd love for everyone to call if I could be guaranteed a winning hand with AK, but that just doesn't happen, especially on FTP where EVERYONE draws out on you. In my preferred situation, I raise high enough that I get 1-2 callers, who then don't draw out on me.
But again, I rarely see my preferred world. Usually some donk with 3-9 off calls and then hits two pair against my aces or kings.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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i dont know if anyone else caught this, but dont min raise!!!! thats probably why you got 8 callers. you are at a very passive table and once a few ppl come for the ride the whole table does.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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are you talking about limit or NL? you said you raised from the BB, so did everyone limp to you? and then you only made it $1 at a .25/.50 table? raise it up proper if youre talking about NL, but if its limit then you should be used to this kind of poo flinging already.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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oh, and move up to where they respect your raises, obv.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
i dont know if anyone else caught this, but dont min raise!!!! thats probably why you got 8 callers. you are at a very passive table and once a few ppl come for the ride the whole table does.
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I was just going to say this. At $5oNL tables the open is for $2 minimum, and on loose tables it's $2.50 and if everyone had that much in why did you not raise more from the BB
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Unibomber14
8 people called you with worse hands? I fail to see the problem.
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Seriously?
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Sue me if I play too long....
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
oh, and move up to where they respect your raises, obv.
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lol it never gets old
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
oh, and move up to where they respect your raises, obv.
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lol it never gets old |
Though I would caution that it could be misunderstood in this forum by some. But agreed, classic.
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Sue me if I play too long....
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
oh, and move up to where they respect your raises, obv.
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lol it never gets old |
Though I would caution that it could be misunderstood in this forum by some. But agreed, classic. |
Ah the days when I can actually BR a move up... then they might respect my crappy play - I'm getting there though, and hopefully getting better along the way.
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Grinder
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I am by no means a poker expert but dude, you've gotta raise like a man. The min-raise is crap and will hardly make anyone fold, especially at micro-stakes. Bet anywhere from 3-5X the BB (and more if there are limpers behind you) but keep your raises consistent.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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You know, I've been thinking about this a bit more.
Maybe the general question is wrong.
'How can I make someone lay down their hand?'
Well... really we can't MAKE someone lay down their hand, we are looking to BEAT their hand... and if we don't show that we have the goods, they can't feel defeated so they go for it... maybe that is a better way to explain it.
There are some out there who will not fold no matter what... and this weekend I proved it... three times. I refused to believe my hands were beat and called all the way to losses in three different tourneys.
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ChrisBCritter
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Falmouth, ME
Posts: 781
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The 3rd link in the beginners digest at the top of this forum! Come on guys!
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ld-t25206.html
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Hey knucklehead! Bonk!
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Over-Bet your hands for value until they stop calling.
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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Sry, I posted at 3am right as I got to work. I didn't read the post properly, and didn't explain myself well. I apologize.
If this is a limit game, then you did what you had to do. Even though you can't induce folds very often that way, you have to get money in with the best hand.
In no limit, if you are uncomfortable raising as TJ suggests above, play lower. I believe the going standard is 3xBB plus 1BB per limper. I like to vary between 3 and 4xBB. That may make the raise here 9xBB ($4.50), but if that is what it takes. If your stack is $15 or less, I think it's fine to just push also.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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'How can I make someone lay down their hand?'
Well... really we can't MAKE someone lay down their hand, we are looking to BEAT their hand... and if we don't show that we have the goods, they can't feel defeated so they go for it... maybe that is a better way to explain it.
If there are 8 people in the pot, you're not winning all that often with AK, but you ARE winning often enough for a raise IN LIMIT POKER to be the right move, because when you do win, you'll win more.
In no limit, you have to be careful how you think. If we have AK, do we want A3 and 8Ts to call a raise? Damn right we do! Do we want EIGHT people holding these hands to call a raise? No, because when we hit our TPTK there's a strong likelihood we'll be stacked by a dra, or a set, or two pair. So we need to isolate, and the only way to do this is to raise and raise big enough to encourage *most* of the villains to fold.
In this instance, with 7 limpers, you're making good $$$ if they ALL fold, so you can bet fairly big - say 8-10 times the BB. If you get called, great, if they all fold, great (bear in mind you don't have position here so a call isn't as desirable as it would be if you were the button).
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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I know nothing about NL.
In LHE you raise AKo because it has good equity preflop, and 3bet/cap it if you can. If you get 8 callers and whiff the flop then you get ready to let it go or check-call it for one bet. There is no point in c-betting into 8 players - one or more of them has a pair or better. Chances are a couple of them have at least a couple of your outs as well.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't raise preflop, it just means you need to be smarter postflop and know when to let go. My guess on the untold part of the OP is that he threw in a c-bet and got called or raised, then chased his overs to the river and lost.
Postflop is all, especially with AK when you are UTG. Winning big pots is nice, but it is much nicer when you can avoid losing other big pots and erasing your gains.
But I don't know from NL, so...
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Vrax
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03-10-2008, 11:52 PM
Post subject: Re: What to do when your raises don't make anyone lay down h
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#22 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by redflea13
I'm @ paradise playing .25/.50 and I raised AK off the BB and 8 out of 10 called to see the flop, yes, 8 people put in a dollar. The one who won the hand had 9 10 and caught 9's on the flop. But should I even bother raising premiium hands like this when obviously no one is folding? Also, what hands should I play at a table like this? |
Paradise is a goldmine if you adjust right to those players. You have a lot of different players, (stations, nits, lags, tags) but everyone of them is totally unbalanced in one way or another.
AKo isn't "premium hand" in deep NLHE.
Listen to Fnord and experiment with overbets.
Learn to distinguish "big pot hands" from "small pot hands".
Build pots in position with big pot hands. If you hit hard then bet bet bet, if you miss, then try to get freebie suckout.
If you hit hard flop in small, unbuilt, limped pot, then overbet 1.5/2x or even more. Don't get pissed if you get folds around, it means that everyone missed. Expect to get called by gutshots, flush draws, one pairs.
3bet above protection threshold with your Aces and Kings.
And read this:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ighlight=bozos
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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showboatlou
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03-15-2008, 10:03 AM
Post subject: Welcome to No Fold'em Hold'em.
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#23 (permalink)
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From a limit perspective nobody, is going to fold after the whole table has limped in and the Big Blind raises. Reason being, a 50 cent raise isn't going to make anybody squirm. Even, at higher limits. Sure, a hand or two may drop out at a 4/8 table. Still, it is not life threatening. If you have a pretty good draw hand to start with then, it makes a lot of sense to stay in. The pot odds are built in. As the raiser, you need to nail your hand on the flop or, you can expect to be run over. AK doesn't like a big field to start with. With so many players already in the pot you might as well hang a bullseye on yourself....Had you been an early raiser instead that would be different. Without the element of a real "loss" to think about then, there is nothing to think about at all. Let's see who gets lucky for a few quarters!...In an eight player hand you need the BEST hand...
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mentheretard
there are better sites
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Spammer alert.
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
until they stop calling.
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Thankfully this will never happen.
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rvrking22
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 200
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Seriously some of you guys get way to indepth for a very simple answer. Which like a few people already stated raise it up like a man. You have that many limpers and then only min-raise....to me thats just asking for something to go wrong. And to make things worst your position sucks as well....
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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The interesting thing about no-limit holdem is that there's no limit to your bet/raise sizes
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Yes, I think a lot of the posts on this site get too detailled, but then again, I'm not winning all that much.
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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maybe you should play some $5 games if you are asking this question?
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Yeah, too much detail. 
Hold 'em is easy with the Sarbox "quick n' easy poker money making formulae"
1. Flop sets, get paid
2. Flop straight flushes, get paid
3. Flop royal flushes, get paid
4. Flop quads, get paid
Don't quite understand what all these other posts are here for... and where my monies at??
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