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Dislexsik
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06-10-2006, 10:22 PM
Post subject: What to do with TPGK when getting miniraised on flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Lately this been happening alot to me.Always those damn miniraises...
I usually bet no matter what position i have when i have TPTK or just a good kicker.Mostly this is 2/3 of the pot or a potbet.
Now my question is,what to do when facing a miniraise on the flop(when nobody raised pf).
I know when u have stats on villain,it makes it more easy to know what decision to make,but what if u don't have any reads?
Btw this is for the lower stakes.
Oh and the same question goes for turn/river when flop doens'nt look dangerous.
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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I'd call everytime at lower stakes unless I've got a read on a player that tells me to fold.
A mini-raise can mean anything. I've seen a board of A39 and I bet (with AK) and get mini-raised by a guy with pocket 5s. I've seen mini-raise bluffs, mini-raise with top pair medium kicker and there are a lot of players who just don't like risking too much so they just raise the minimum.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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I think calling a minraise with TPGK everytime is a big leak, well, it is a big leak. One of the more important reads you can have on a player is what a minraise or minbet means. Depending on their stats you can usually get a general feel for what it means, but putting a third bet in and seeing how they react gives you very valuable information. As a standard play though, if you are minraised on the turn or river and you only have one pair, you should fold.
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dwags222
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gaylord, MI
Posts: 151
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i'm not really sure just how low of stakes you are talking about...but at 25nl i pretty much always raise a min bet w/tptk...this gives you alot more information and at least on 25nl you have a better hand than the min raiser 80 percent of the time. this goes for the turn too, there are alot of times i will cbet on the flop and some donk will min bet into me...and most of the time i raise and he folds or makes a hesitant call and it is check check on the river w/ me winning........min raises on the river are at the very least a call most of the time i'd say...for me it is all the time at 25nl...because it is usually some guy looking for a cheap showdown w/ his tpbk or some random middle pp. i'd say folding on the river is pretty much also a sucky idea because if you have been betting tptk there will be a pot and you only need to have a winning hand against a min bet ever so often (avg pot/min bet) to make it +ev on the river.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dwags222
i'm not really sure just how low of stakes you are talking about...but at 25nl i pretty much always raise a min bet w/tptk...this gives you alot more information and at least on 25nl you have a better hand than the min raiser 80 percent of the time. this goes for the turn too, there are alot of times i will cbet on the flop and some donk will min bet into me...and most of the time i raise and he folds or makes a hesitant call and it is check check on the river w/ me winning........min raises on the river are at the very least a call most of the time i'd say...for me it is all the time at 25nl...because it is usually some guy looking for a cheap showdown w/ his tpbk or some random middle pp. i'd say folding on the river is pretty much also a sucky idea because if you have been betting tptk there will be a pot and you only need to have a winning hand against a min bet ever so often (avg pot/min bet) to make it +ev on the river.
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I think you are confusing min raise and minbet. If somebody wanted a cheap showdown they would call, not raise. On the turn a minbet and a minraise are not the same thing. At 25nl if the pot is $5 on the turn and villain leads for $0.25, thats a minbet. If you lead for $4 and he raises to $8, thats a minraise. I agree that minbets typically arent from strong hands [its something I like to take a note on though], but minraises definitely show some more strength than a minbet.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
I think you are confusing min raise and minbet.
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With any part of the flop (or not), they mean the same thing to me. I'm raising them to shove that min action in their face, until they show me it means something.
More often than not this means weakness.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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SinkRox
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 624
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minraise here usually = monster so if I proceed its with caution.
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Experimenting - 200NL 5max.
"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
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relayer
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SinkRox
minraise here usually = monster so if I proceed its with caution.
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I've read this advice here many, many times and I certainly take heed of it. However, at PokerRoom $25NL, the great majority of players have absolutely no clue how to bet their hands. Minbets and minraises simply do not correlate to particular hand strengths. Until villain shows me otherwise, I assume he is typical, and a minraise could mean absolutely anything.
BTW, at this site and at this level, pot sized bets are almost non-existent (except from me.)
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by relayer
minraises simply do not correlate to particular hand strengths
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...without more information on that particular player.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by relayer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SinkRox
minraise here usually = monster so if I proceed its with caution.
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I've read this advice here many, many times and I certainly take heed of it. However, at PokerRoom $25NL, the great majority of players have absolutely no clue how to bet their hands. Minbets and minraises simply do not correlate to particular hand strengths. Until villain shows me otherwise, I assume he is typical, and a minraise could mean absolutely anything.
BTW, at this site and at this level, pot sized bets are almost non-existent (except from me.) |
yeah, I have seen that too - IMO a CLEVER player might min-raise the flop with a monster. Bad players do it because they have a crappy hand and are trying to see if you missed the flop, or just to slow you down - I re-raise a min-raise on that flop - The main reason is I don't want to get more involved on the Turn & River - I would rather take down the pot right then...If they call the 3 bet, it's time to slow down, i think...but I think folding to a min-raise there is better than just calling - 1 pair hands don't have a lot of outs when your behind - Its better to take down the pot and/or know if your really behind...
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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means usually 1 of 3 things where I'm playing these days on b 2 b at nl100 6 max :
1) I don't believe u plz reraise me and I will fold or flat call me and I will give up the hand on the turn (usually done by weak-tighties who are sick of your raises and making pathetic "plays")
2) I am a fish and do this with tp everytime on any street regardless of board texture
3) I have a monster and realize that you (hero) are an overaggressive donkey who will reraise my minraise w air. Brilliant play.
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Awaji E
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Japan
Posts: 61
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I don't like the idea of re-raising a min-RAISE without a really strong hand. If it's $5 at the flop, I've got TPTK and bet $4, get min-raised to $8, you're talking about a lot of money just to min-re-raise. You MIGHT be called by TPGK, but anyone else who calls you is beating you.
I don't worry about a min-bet on the flop, but if villian is willing to min-bet then min-reraise, he's got something.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SinkRox
minraise here usually = monster so if I proceed its with caution.
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Naw...that's the turn min raise. Flop raise is draw or a weak attempt to get checked to on the turn.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Awaji E
I don't like the idea of re-raising a min-RAISE without a really strong hand.
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I don't like the idea of going another street without some definition on his hand, particularly if I'm OOP.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Awaji E
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Japan
Posts: 61
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How much of a re-raise would you do?
$25NL. Lets say we've got AK, out of position. We raise pre-flop, get 2 callers, for a $3.35 pot. We hit Axx. Bet $3, one fold, get raised to $6. What do you do? How much of it depends on what xx are? I'm really curious, because this is exactly the kind of situation where I feel I over play TPTK. If I re-raise here, I'll have a hard time getting away from this hand. Would you play differently earlier in this hand?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Awaji E
How much of a re-raise would you do?
$25NL. Lets say we've got AK, out of position. We raise pre-flop, get 2 callers, for a $3.35 pot. We hit Axx. Bet $3, one fold, get raised to $6. What do you do? How much of it depends on what xx are? I'm really curious, because this is exactly the kind of situation where I feel I over play TPTK. If I re-raise here, I'll have a hard time getting away from this hand. Would you play differently earlier in this hand?
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Hey Awaji :
This thread seemed to be about "what does minraise mean" (villain's holdings). The 3 possibilities that I encounter most frequently will clearly depend on villain's tendencies. My post was in no way recommending that you blindly reriase any minraise, especially without a read (see possibility 3 I mentioned  ).
Your nl25 example will obviously depend on many factors. I'm not sure I'd advocate pot-sized betting at nl25 when a 2/3 - 3/4 pot bet would probably accomplish the same thing... but that's another thread in itself.
If I were in your shoes w Ax on an A-x-x flop WITH NO READ ON VILLAIN I'd prob smooth call and try to keep the pot as small as possible to get a cheap showdown and a read on what villain's minraise means. Usually people who min-raise flops don't have much consideration for pot-size in their betting so you'll probably be able to get to the river cheaply.
Sometimes I will pull the rereraise (possibly w air) the very first time someone min-raises my c bet on the flop. Worst-case scenario I lose a bunch of money but acquire a maniacal table image, best case I take down the pot and min-raiser gets put in his place. A read is very valuable in the short-handed games I play, but if you're playing 13 tables of full ring it may be less valuable, so the last move I mentioned may be worthless.
End of ramble.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Whenever I get minraised, I generally lean towards calling rather than 3-betting or folding no matter what I have. The nature of a minraise is that its so weak that whether he's got a good hand or not its worth it to at least call, because the pot odds you are getting are irresistable.
Then only time i 3-bet a minraise is
1. When I am sure I have the winning hand AND that he will call with a lesser hand.
2. If i have a read that with this player minraises mean weakness AND I am sure he will fold to my bet.
Other than that I don't see a point in it. I think its really bad to 3-bet "by default" against unknowns who minraise you, because its a losing proposition to believe that everyone will fold to a reraise.
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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I got reminded of this thread today when I got mini-raised on the flop. I had AA and the flop was all rags, I was a little worried but just re-raised to see what he'd do. He called, he mini-raised with just a flush draw.
I'm telling you, from my experience more often than not they don't have a huge hand.
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