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ponyboy
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10-30-2008, 07:31 PM
Post subject: What do pros do that is different from what grinders do?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Besides having a larger bankroll of course...
Watching and reading as much as I do you see a lot of pro play on TV, etc. Obviously this is hugely edited and you don't see 90% of the play. You only see the hands where pros make a sick move or bluff because it provides for the best viewing.
However, there is a saying that final tables see a lot of familiar faces, which generally is true. But they still have to calcuate odds, make reads and find tells just as much as the average person. Obviously they have more experience at it, but what do you think they do that is different than what we low level players do to elevate themselves to the next level?
This could also be a two part question - if you are a former low stakes player that has grinded through the ranks, was there any small piece of your game that allowed you to get to the next level?
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Do work.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Good to see the level of discussion about this topic.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Its a pretty general question.
You seem to be focusing on live tournaments. In live tournaments its probably a combination of experience (they've played more), better at reading live players, better control. It often only takes one mistake to get knocked out of those things.
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Just playing to improve.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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they have insane post flop play, whereas a lot of grinders are just basic/intermediate
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
Good to see the level of discussion about this topic.
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Yeah I know it's so fucking horrible because I said the W-word.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I think pros do 2 things much better than beginners/intermediates.
1. They extract more value.
2. They make less mistakes.
Do not undervalue #2, the best players make very few mistakes in all aspects of their game. This includes tells, images, bluffs, etc. The kinds of things that only experience gives.
Also me thinks a grinder is a pro...
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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"pros" possess sick post flop skills.....the good ones.
my brother went to Vegas a couple months back and didnt realize brandon cantu was sitting two spots to his right. (cantu was bankrolling a friend for the night and slumming at the 1/2 NL tables.)
point is: my brother tangled with him....lost....but, had fleeced his friend earlier that night. so, they traded stories about what they did to each other and why.
you would be AMAZED at the thought process that cantu went through. automatic, almost subconscious 3rd level stuff about what my brother was doing and how the board affected his ranges. cantu basically stacked off very light against my brother's aggression and knew he was letting my brother spew it right off.
a $250 lesson my brother wont soon forget.
grinders open as many tables as they can to maximize value. pros profit by actually playing poker. (not that grinders are bad, i just dont think they could compete in the "pro's" environment.....live & w/o HUDs)
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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You grind until you have enough to go pro, or you grind for the rest of your poker career.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
grinders open as many tables as they can to maximize value. pros profit by actually playing poker. (not that grinders are bad, i just dont think they could compete in the "pro's" environment.....live & w/o HUDs)
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What the fuck are you talking about?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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vaks
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 331
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Proffeional: a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs
Grinder: 1. Someone staying on top of their shit. (ie. making money, accomplishing goals, getting an education, career, etc.)
2. Someone who is always on the grind.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i am saying that, IMO, the diff between a grinder and a "pro" is post flop skill/reads that a massive multitabler doesnt possess. typical multitablers play their cards, and use HUDs/PT to gather their reads by stats. they, then, max out their winrate by opening as many tables as they can.
when i think of a "pro," i think of a live player that makes his income from ONE table at higher stakes w/o the use of a HUD/computer program.
i didnt say that grinders are bad at poker. i just think that most of them would get the F pwnd from them if they went up against a "pro" because they dont have the hand-reading ability to adjust properly when they dont have stat windows up telling them what to do.
i understand that pro means "he who makes a living," but i put my own twist on it.
i dont mean anything offensive in my generalization to anyone here or online. and, there are certainly exceptions to my opinion.
i am only saying that most online HUDbots would get crushed in live action games against the higher stakes players. when i think of "pro," i think of Lindgren, Greenstein, Negreanu, Lederer, Ivey, Harman, Forrest, and many others that we have never seen on tv. you know, he who drives huge cars and lives in huge homes because he pwnd the shit out of people repeatedly while they were hammered and used it to pay the mortgage.
when i think of grinders, i think of names like "Bluff2Much", "PktRkts", "Anytoodoo", shit like that. online players....like most of us.
and, if we matched up with the aforementioned group, MOST (not all) of us, would be laying a significant edge to the "pro."
another analogy....spenda is a great golfer, no doubt. but, he would get the F pwnd from him by any tour player that is out there. they adjust better, have better technique, are used to higher pressures, etc. this is NOT to say that spenda wouldnt pwn the F out of me on the course, he would. hell, poker tables, too. but, he cant match up against what i call a "pro." (and, yes, i know he was a teaching pro). hell, david leadbetter cant make it on tour, either, but the man makes nice scratch.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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I always thought that the terms 'pro' and 'grinder' aren't mutually exclusive.
There are some pro grinders and amateur grinders.
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vaks
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 331
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
i am saying that, IMO, the diff between a grinder and a "pro" is post flop skill/reads that a massive multitabler doesnt possess. typical multitablers play their cards, and use HUDs/PT to gather their reads by stats. they, then, max out their winrate by opening as many tables as they can.
when i think of a "pro," i think of a live player that makes his income from ONE table at higher stakes w/o the use of a HUD/computer program.
i didnt say that grinders are bad at poker. i just think that most of them would get the F pwnd from them if they went up against a "pro" because they dont have the hand-reading ability to adjust properly when they dont have stat windows up telling them what to do.
i understand that pro means "he who makes a living," but i put my own twist on it.
i dont mean anything offensive in my generalization to anyone here or online. and, there are certainly exceptions to my opinion.
i am only saying that most online HUDbots would get crushed in live action games against the higher stakes players. when i think of "pro," i think of Lindgren, Greenstein, Negreanu, Lederer, Ivey, Harman, Forrest, and many others that we have never seen on tv. you know, he who drives huge cars and lives in huge homes because he pwnd the shit out of people repeatedly while they were hammered and used it to pay the mortgage.
when i think of grinders, i think of names like "Bluff2Much", "PktRkts", "Anytoodoo", shit like that. online players....like most of us.
and, if we matched up with the aforementioned group, MOST (not all) of us, would be laying a significant edge to the "pro."
another analogy....spenda is a great golfer, no doubt. but, he would get the F pwnd from him by any tour player that is out there. they adjust better, have better technique, are used to higher pressures, etc. this is NOT to say that spenda wouldnt pwn the F out of me on the course, he would. hell, poker tables, too. but, he cant match up against what i call a "pro." (and, yes, i know he was a teaching pro). hell, david leadbetter cant make it on tour, either, but the man makes nice scratch.
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lol i didn't even finish reading i got to the 2nd or 3rd paragraph...
so durr would be as you say a grinder, and he repeatedly takes money from these "live pros" and he plays multiple tables at the time... he probably even throws in omaha with nl! not many lives pros can do that im sure...
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
I always thought that the terms 'pro' and 'grinder' aren't mutually exclusive.
There are some pro grinders and amateur grinders.
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Typical multi-tabling HUDBOT propaganda, I'm afraid.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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the real pro has the ability to crush both online and live games 
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by vaks
he probably even throws in omaha with nl! not many lives pros can do that im sure...
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yeah, it'd be hard to play more than one table at a live casino. lol. but, i do see those guys on FT playing more than one table, and often different games, too.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
i am only saying that most online HUDbots would get crushed in live action games against the higher stakes players. when i think of "pro," i think of Lindgren, Greenstein, Negreanu, Lederer, Ivey, Harman, Forrest, and many others that we have never seen on tv. you know, he who drives huge cars and lives in huge homes because he pwnd the shit out of people repeatedly while they were hammered and used it to pay the mortgage.
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,449
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QFMFT
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I damage threads that may actually benefit some posters
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vaks
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 331
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Pros:
Grinders:
Pros just have a lot more fun
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Dude, seeing Barry Greenstein do the cabbage patch almost made me throw up. ROFL
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daven
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10-31-2008, 10:26 PM
Post subject: Re: What do pros do that is different from what grinders do?
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#22 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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define what you mean by pro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
Watching and reading as much as I do you see a lot of pro play on TV, etc.
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don't do this if you want to become a better poker player
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
what do you think they do that is different than what we low level players do to elevate themselves to the next level?
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they play better, and work to play even better
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
f you are a former low stakes player that has grinded through the ranks, was there any small piece of your game that allowed you to get to the next level?
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I'm still a low stakes player trying to grind through the ranks - but learning to tighten up pre-flop has helped a lot. After that, have you heard about "range"?
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GHOST 24 7
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: california
Posts: 20
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Well well this is a good post I learned the game of holdem 8 months ago started playin for money 6months ago and started playing no limit $2/$5 5 months ago and a few weeks a lost a lot of money I found out the hard way POST FLOP READS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART F POKER I THINK but like I said ima a new palyer
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GHOST 24 7
Well well this is a good post I learned the game of holdem 8 months ago started playin for money 6months ago and started playing no limit $2/$5 5 months ago and a few weeks a lost a lot of money I found out the hard way POST FLOP READS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART F POKER I THINK but like I said ima a new palyer
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You should join IRC. Click my signature for details.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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GHOST 24 7
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: california
Posts: 20
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[quote="vaks"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
so durr would be as you say a grinder, and he repeatedly takes money from these "live pros" and he plays multiple tables at the time... he probably even throws in omaha with nl! not many lives pros can do that im sure...
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Yeah I don't think he is talking about grinders like durr. He could go pro any day of the week. Tom dWann is really good but he is an online player which is a grinder. Real poker pros like ivey play 70 hours a week in live casinos. So grinder=online player who mts and grinds it out everyday online. They don't even know wut a real casino looks like. Pro live casino player who makes his money due to live poker. But back to the durr comments the last few day he has been getting owned by john juanda a real pro period. But I praise the man cuz he claims he made a million already this year off of online poker which is a amazing for a grinder who should turn pro.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Note to all who are paying attention: grinder does not mean online poker player, "pro" does not mean "live pro", and the best live NLHE players aren't necessarily better or worse than the best online NLHE players.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GHOST 24 7
Yeah I don't think he is talking about grinders like durr. He could go pro any day of the week. Tom dWann is really good but he is an online player which is a grinder. Real poker pros like ivey play 70 hours a week in live casinos. So grinder=online player who mts and grinds it out everyday online. They don't even know wut a real casino looks like. Pro live casino player who makes his money due to live poker. But back to the durr comments the last few day he has been getting owned by john juanda a real pro period. But I praise the man cuz he claims he made a million already this year off of online poker which is a amazing for a grinder who should turn pro. |
lol not sure why you wouldn't consider dwan a pro. his main source of income is poker. like spoon said there's no reason to think of online pros as being on a lower tier than live pros. some people grind it out in casinos while others grind it out online. also, someone isn't a "real pro" just cuz you see them on tv a couple times.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by vaks
Pros:
Grinders:
Pros just have a lot more fun |
note dwan in both pics
case closed.
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now I definitely want to be a live pro
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
now I definitely want to be a live pro
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I wouldn't mind being either. Playing poker for a living?? Is there really any better job in the world?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
now I definitely want to be a live pro
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I wouldn't mind being either. Playing poker for a living?? Is there really any better job in the world? |
you need the ability to not want to kill yourself when on a huge downswing worth lots of $$. if you are crazy over-rolled it could be pretty fun i imagine.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GHOST 24 7
Real poker pros
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politely - i think you are wtf wrong if you say playing live is what defines a real player. Each to their own I guess
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
I wouldn't mind being either. Playing poker for a living?? Is there really any better job in the world?
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Assuming that you are a decent player with 1.5-2.5 BB/100 over a large sample of hands, you can play for a living from online 100NL+ plus rakeback bonus. When talking about live cash(1/2NL or above), i think that any solid grinders should be able to make a living as long as there are plenty of soft loose games in their local card room. Seriously, some poker grinders live like a king in a country with cheap costs of living 
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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I would think $100NL would be pretty thin if you're trying to make a living. In my mind, $1000NL would be the minimum level to sustain an living, and I would need a really fat bankroll.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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At 100nl at 3ptbb/100 you are making $6/100 hands. If you are a reasonable multi-tablers you should be able to get 600-800 hands (or more) per hour. $30/hr or more is very attainable at 100nl. And this doesn't include any of the bonuses/rakeback you will get. Therefore, it's rather easy (if your a winner) to make $3k+ per month.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
At 100nl at 3ptbb/100 you are making $6/100 hands. If you are a reasonable multi-tablers you should be able to get 600-800 hands (or more) per hour. $30/hr or more is very attainable at 100nl. And this doesn't include any of the bonuses/rakeback you will get. Therefore, it's rather easy (if your a winner) to make $3k+ per month.
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I guess it's all a matter of perspective, then. $3k/mo seems like a really nice side gig for me, but would not sustain a living. (Married, 2 kids)
Is it acceptable to extend the same win rates to $1000NL? How about 1.5ptBB/100? Even then, you're at $15k/mo. That looks more like a livable income from a source that can have tremendous swings.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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True it's a matter of an individual's cost of living. But it also depends on the volume of hands you put in. At 3ptbb/100 at 100nl every 20k hands should net you on average $1.2k. If you treat it like a true "job" and multitable numerous hours per week, then you could pull in a rather nice living (at least for me where $1k is more than I need per month as a college student).
I have no experience at $1knl, so I can't confirm or deny attainable winrates, etc.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
At 100nl at 3ptbb/100 you are making $6/100 hands. If you are a reasonable multi-tablers you should be able to get 600-800 hands (or more) per hour. $30/hr or more is very attainable at 100nl. And this doesn't include any of the bonuses/rakeback you will get. Therefore, it's rather easy (if your a winner) to make $3k+ per month.
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I guess it's all a matter of perspective, then. $3k/mo seems like a really nice side gig for me, but would not sustain a living. (Married, 2 kids)
Is it acceptable to extend the same win rates to $1000NL? How about 1.5ptBB/100? Even then, you're at $15k/mo. That looks more like a livable income from a source that can have tremendous swings. |
Assume 800 hands/hour, 25 hours/week, 2.5 ptbb/100 at 200nl. That's $2000/week not counting rakeback.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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