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dalecooper
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01-26-2005, 08:35 PM
Post subject: What to do with the pre-flop re-raise?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Sample hand: ring game, NL hold 'em. You have AQo, middle position. You raise 2 or 3xBB. It folds around until the player on the button re-raises you the same amount you initially raised. You have no read on this player as either he or you is new to the table.
Call, raise, or fold here?
Arguments for calling: the re-raise isn't that much, why not take a flop and see what happens? Good pot odds.
Arguments for folding: you're out of position; his re-raise indicates strength, and lacking knowledge on the player you should probably assume he has AK or a high pair, all of which pose a serious problem for your hand. Sklansky's gap concept, etc.
Arguments for raising: no read on the player and you want to find out how serious he is, if he's just stealing, etc.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I'll tell you up front, I think the standard play here is either a call followed by a check/fold to the flop bet (if this player misses the flop), or a call followed by a bet (if a queen or ace flops) and then a tough decision on the inevitable raise. That's why the call here bugs me. I find myself often calling and then check/folding or bet/folding, which makes me think I should consider just folding it to begin with, and forget the pot odds.
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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I hate that position... especially since if you do hit one of your cards you have no idea where you stand.
I re-raise QQ-AA and AK but that doesn't mean that is the only thing that this guy will re-raise with... (big leak I just realized in my game, don't assume they are playing like you)
I think that to minimize losses you need to fold here. If he continually does this during the session I try reraising him big and see if he folds.
- sed
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Whenever someone min re-raises me, it seems like they always have AK, AA, or KK. I am going to start folding in this situation.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnnyawe
Whenever someone min re-raises me, it seems like they always have AK, AA, or KK. I am going to start folding in this situation.
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And that's why the min-raise steal is so easy.
Make a bigger raise with a real hand and people think you're TRYING to steal.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Ayce
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Do you also raise big PP by the same amount? This type of raise looks like a moderately good but not powerful hand, which is exactly what you have. An aggressive player will reraise to put you to the test and is likely to raise on almost all flops, this is particularly true if you have just entered the game.
I suggest you flat call with AQ in early position when you are new to a table, but I have a tendency to be weak tight. An aggressive player is likely to make a 4BB raise and then either reraise a single raiser or fold.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ayce
Do you also raise big PP by the same amount? This type of raise looks like a moderately good but not powerful hand, which is exactly what you have. An aggressive player will reraise to put you to the test and is likely to raise on almost all flops, this is particularly true if you have just entered the game.
I suggest you flat call with AQ in early position when you are new to a table, but I have a tendency to be weak tight. An aggressive player is likely to make a 4BB raise and then either reraise a single raiser or fold.
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To me much depends on the action. I change up my standard raises depending on how the table is playing. The purpose of the raise is to get into pots with two or three players max, so I do what I have to in order for that to happen. At a tight table I raise most of my good hands 2 or 3x BB. At a loose table where too many are calling raises like that, I'll bump it up to 5x BB. The raise is standard so I raise that much with any good hand, AQ or better. I also will raise bigger in late position if too many have limped in, and I will throw in change-ups (limp a good hand from early position hoping to re-raise, or flat call someone else's raise; min-raise UTG with anything just to see what happens; raise my standard amount with what is not normally a raising hand for me, like a mid pocket pair).
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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Ok, so I lied...
picked up AQs in middle position tonight I raised 3x and get re-raised, I called...
The difference in that situation is that I pretty much knew the guy had something because we'd been playing for about an hour and we had both doubled the buyin. I knew to get away from it if i didn't catch a huge flop. The implied odds were monster if I hit a flush since most people can't lay it down a big pair...
Flop comes QQ9 rainbow and I crack an evil grin when he throws out a 2x pot raise.... I push and he calls.
Another 9 comes and my queens full crack the cowboys. w00t
- sed
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Now see - nice result, but he had you beat about 70-30. Why get involved heads-up in a hand like that if you know 70% of the time you're throwing money away? To go back to Sklansky, if you knew what he was playing you would have to fold. However, congratulations on taking his money.
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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yes but.... in your case you didn't know he had you beat which could make it even more expensive if you called and hit. It only cost me 3BB more into a ~12 BB pot to see the flop so the odds were close, add in the implied odds and it is a call. I think these situations are where suited vs off-suit makes just enough of a difference to make it a call when you are pretty sure you are beat. If he had raised with balls and made it 9-12BB more, I would have probably folded. My read on my opponent makes a huge difference in how I play this hand pre-flop.
- sed
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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I would usually call with AQs but fold with AQo in this position.
Like you mentioned, I hate calling a raise with AQ, flopping either an A or a Q and getting the sinking feeling that I made my hand but am already beat. I'd rather just avoid this dangerous situation altogether.
With AQs, at least you have the nut flush possibilities.
So is it weak to fold AQo here?
Does anyone re-raise with it trying to gain information and make better hands fold?
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ectomorph
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 21
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In that situation I would normally fold AQos. Too easily dominated and a coinflip at best out of position. You can pick a much better spot to play a big pot.
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