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What do I do? KK dead?

  
 
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IslandAK
Old 06-18-2006, 10:47 AM     Post subject: What do I do? KK dead? #1 (permalink)  

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Help me out please. What's the play?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($16.89)
Button ($15.53)
SB ($7.25)
BB ($24.16)
UTG ($7.25)
UTG+1 ($23.64)
Hero ($32.35)
MP2 ($24.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.75, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.50.

Flop: ($3.85) 7, T, Q (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $3, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($15.85) 3 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $5
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givememyleg
Old 06-18-2006, 07:44 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 If UTG+1 is a fish here I'm willing to go broke if he out flopped me.

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majorj
Old 06-18-2006, 08:16 PM #3 (permalink)  

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No way im gonna fold here. aq is maybe the most likely hand - if he hit the set you just have to pay him off.
Do you have any read?
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Renton
Old 06-18-2006, 09:32 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I fold the turn if villain is like 12/5, otherwise I am calling this down.
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jackvance
Old 06-18-2006, 10:15 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Allin on the turn unless he's a confirmed nit.
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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IslandAK
Old 06-19-2006, 12:13 PM #6 (permalink)  

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Thank you to those who replied already.

Sorry, no reals reads (except that I'm playing 25NL on Party). He's not a complete idiot from what I could tell.

I ended up folding.

The things that worried me were:
A) He tried to limp, then called my raise. Who the hell does that with AQ from early position. Only a complete fool, right?
B) He thought about whether to call my preflop raise for a long time. That made me think he had a smaller pair.
c) He check-raised the flop and lead the turn. True, only 1/2 the pot.

I guess the big problem is the preflop limp-call. Isn't that how we all play our small/medium pairs? I know I can't assume someone plays like me, but a lot of people limp-call small pairs.

Anyway, what's the verdict? Too weak? Okay lay down? I'm comfortable with the fold, but there is potentially a lot of value left out of my game if my play was bad.
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EthanH1
Old 06-19-2006, 12:42 PM #7 (permalink)  
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i see this hand is all about the flop, sure he limp-called pre-flop small pair 7's, 10's maybe if you can't put him on these hands you are leading and to only calling his check rasie sceams weakness and is why you folded to his $5 bet on the turn with the 3h not helping ether. this is a point you realy need to take a stand and ask the real question here a re-rasie on the flop here to $12 maybe $15 would find out where you are, but the real question is on this flop are you willing to go broke with KK's, i would every day
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relayer
Old 06-19-2006, 06:12 PM #8 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanH1
i see this hand is all about the flop, sure he limp-called pre-flop small pair 7's, 10's maybe if you can't put him on these hands you are leading and to only calling his check rasie sceams weakness and is why you folded to his $5 bet on the turn with the 3h not helping ether. this is a point you realy need to take a stand and ask the real question here a re-rasie on the flop here to $12 maybe $15 would find out where you are, but the real question is on this flop are you willing to go broke with KK's, i would every day
Yeah, o.k, but PT over 20K hands clearly and unambiguously shows that Pairs are the biggest losers for me. If I were OP, this would be a set like every time. Maybe I'm just unlucky, and maybe I'm a donkey, but I have miserable stats with one pair hands. I am definitely gun shy...
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jackvance
Old 06-19-2006, 06:42 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Well, if your read was that he had a set, then it's an ok fold. Some people will play a set like this, but a lot don't. So you went with your read, there's nothing wrong with that imo. This line could be a lot of hands, especially with fish. If you already suspected a pp, and then he starts to do weaksauce things to keep you in the hand.. maybe you were right?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 06-19-2006, 07:58 PM #10 (permalink)  
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A) He tried to limp, then called my raise. Who the hell does that with AQ from early position. Only a complete fool, right?

lol, i do this with AQ only so it doesnt seem like i only limp call with a pocket pair.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 06-19-2006, 10:39 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I think it's either push flop or fold turn.

Reads are def huge-I go broke vs a fish/calling station/maniac/gambler.

I fold vs a TAG/rock/Tap.
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IslandAK
Old 06-21-2006, 10:06 AM #12 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Well, if your read was that he had a set, then it's an ok fold. Some people will play a set like this, but a lot don't. So you went with your read, there's nothing wrong with that imo. This line could be a lot of hands, especially with fish. If you already suspected a pp, and then he starts to do weaksauce things to keep you in the hand.. maybe you were right?
The thing is I can't be sure unless I see it, right. But it did play weird. Maybe I should have reraised the turn. But then I'm pretty much stuck and should have pushed the flop... ??? Dammit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanH1
i see this hand is all about the flop... this is a point you realy need to take a stand and ask the real question here a re-rasie on the flop here to $12 maybe $15 would find out where you are, but the real question is on this flop are you willing to go broke with KK's, i would every day
I could have re-reraised. Most of the time people bet their hands though. That's how I donked off half my roll, playing with guys who are betting into me. Usually, if the villan bets he/she has a hand. (in my experience at 25NL & 50NL). I wanted to see what he would do on the turn.

I prefer not to go broke. In a Q&A column Scott Fischman said,"Try to be the guy with the set or the straights or the flushes in a cash game, and don't get drilled with one pair." He also chastises a player for folding KK when an A turns (because of the previous action), so I'm not saying I'm right to fold but I feel it's reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
A) He tried to limp, then called my raise. Who the hell does that with AQ from early position. Only a complete fool, right?

lol, i do this with AQ only so it doesnt seem like i only limp call with a pocket pair.
Okay, a fool or a sneaky guy. But do you show it down often enough for people to see? And aren't you losing some leverage by letting people in cheap? I'm just asking because I'm not good enough not to raise my AQ and cut the limpers out.
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givememyleg
Old 06-21-2006, 12:48 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Big pairs suck for new people at ring - myself included.

Tough to fold, and when you do, you wish you wouldn't have.

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Lukie
Old 06-21-2006, 04:17 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Big pairs suck for new people at ring - myself included.

Tough to fold, and when you do, you wish you wouldn't have.
they also account for over 100% of many players' profits, but that's not really important.
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jackvance
Old 06-21-2006, 04:36 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandAK
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Well, if your read was that he had a set, then it's an ok fold. Some people will play a set like this, but a lot don't. So you went with your read, there's nothing wrong with that imo. This line could be a lot of hands, especially with fish. If you already suspected a pp, and then he starts to do weaksauce things to keep you in the hand.. maybe you were right?
The thing is I can't be sure unless I see it, right. But it did play weird. Maybe I should have reraised the turn. But then I'm pretty much stuck and should have pushed the flop... ??? Dammit.
If you trust your reads, it doesn't matter if he actually had it. Most of the time, he will, that's what matters. And if you don't trust your reads, call some stuff down to confirm. I do this sometimes - mostly in the past when I was still working on my reads - just to see if I'm right. Knowing you can trust your reads saves you lotsa $$$ in the long run.
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givememyleg
Old 06-21-2006, 05:43 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Big pairs suck for new people at ring - myself included.

Tough to fold, and when you do, you wish you wouldn't have.
they also account for over 100% of many players' profits, but that's not really important.
Yes, my top 6 hands all include TT - AA also. What I meant is that when I first started playing ring exclusively, post flop play with these hands was tricky. Esspecially since I played nothing but sngs for months where big pairs ruled the world.

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pokerroomace
Old 06-21-2006, 06:52 PM #17 (permalink)  
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You should see this hand to the end. What are you scared of? 2 pair? Trips?

This guy could have made the same play with AQ or worse.

I can't believe you actually made this fold. Your pot odds if you go allin are 50 to 17. about 3 to 1. If you just make the call. Your pot odds are 21 to 5. about 4 to 1.
So you only need to win 20-25% of these hands to break even. You have to call. Even if your behind at this point, one of the 2 Kings left will win it for you and that's 2 out of 46 (or 1 in 23, about 4.4%). It's a must call. If you played this hands 1000 times over, I'm sure you would make a profit by calling and you would be making a mistake by folding.

The most likely hand that he can have that can beat you is 77, TT, QQ or QT (or AA). He might have the hand, but you 100% sure that he doesn't have a drawing hand or just a pair of queens? AQ is a very likely possibility. If you're going to fold this hand you have to be over 80% sure that you're beat. You can't give him that much credit. I think it was definitely a mistake folding this hand. No read at online poker is good enough to make the fold here.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 06-22-2006, 01:03 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 Does anyone not think the min raise is a draw? the weak bet on the turn makes me think he was trying to take control of the hand.
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 06-22-2006, 04:53 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
they also account for over 100% of many players' profits, but that's not really important.
They also account for a 100% of your losses vs sets.
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Sprayed
Old 06-22-2006, 01:24 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandAK
I guess the big problem is the preflop limp-call. Isn't that how we all play our small/medium pairs? I know I can't assume someone plays like me, but a lot of people limp-call small pairs.


What would people limp with in EP and then smooth call a raise? Without a read, I'm guessing suited connectors, Ax, or small/medium pp. I throw out AQ, because most people raise with this hand from any position when first to act. If he has been open limping in early position a lot, then you have nothing to worry about. If this is the first time he open limped and he has raised in EP before, then I would suspect something. However with his smooth call this would tell me that he has a marginal hand. The reraise on the flop is weak and the turn bet is weak as well. Check/call it down next time if you are unsure if you are ahead when they weak bet and raise ya.

BTW - You may want to change up your play from time to time with small pp. I try to raise with any hand that I want to play when I am first to act especially in LP. Try not to open limp with any hand. The advantage of this allows you to take a stab at the flop when you miss.
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