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What to do facing a reraise with QQ or JJ pre-flop?

  
 
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diabloiij
Old 10-20-2005, 12:32 PM     Post subject: What to do facing a reraise with QQ or JJ pre-flop? #1 (permalink)  

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i play on partypoker 25nl

when i get these hands i usually just raise 4xBB and go from there.

1. what if i face a min reraise?
(i would reraise him with QQ or call with JJ)

2. a big reraise? >2x my raise
(i would call here with both hands, if implied odds are still good. any bet larger than 4 dollar i will fold)

3. when u have good position like button or button+1, and u see a raiser followed by another reraise?
(i would automaticly fold)

anything smell fishy there?

PS: hate to get deal these 2 hands. toughest to play
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PokerPatNEU
Old 10-20-2005, 02:30 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Whenever i get reraised pre flop with TT-QQ i will call and play for set value if the stacks are deep enough. Flop a set and play it out, miss the flop and its check/fold time. If my opponent is particularly aggressive i might check raise him on a low/raggy flop if i think its likely he is holding AK/AQ/KQ etc and missed. Sometimes i will reraise with QQ if i have position, to try and get my opponent to better define his hand pre flop.
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edudlive
Old 10-20-2005, 07:42 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Call and hope for a set. If the flop comes all under cards you can try to check raise, but if you get reraised there you have to lay it down probably
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TalentedTom
Old 10-21-2005, 02:40 AM #4 (permalink)  
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it really depends on your opponent, if the stakcs are not deep its most likey a even money race or he may be in there gambling with mid PP ( i dont respect a stack under 40xBB)

***I find in lower levels people ovetbet strong draw hands and underbet monsters (resulting in a lot of bad beats and end up blaming the site)
Against the underbet i think you need to play for trips vs the overbet, it depends on the player, check out the hand history see if this guy has been taking down a lot of pots playing way too many hands if any of these is true you can push. If he has been in the table for 40+ hands and only showndown 1 hand, you can fold ez.
Poker is the game of people the most important question is who rasied me and how has hes play been so far, don't fold to the fish who goes all in with AK after missing on a 238 rainbow flop you know who you are
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BankItDrew
Old 10-24-2005, 03:55 AM #5 (permalink)  
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BankItDrew will become famous soon enough
 depending on size of re-raise of course...

but call, see the flop if it has cards higher than yours.


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renegaderob1
Old 10-24-2005, 09:28 AM     Post subject: Re: What to do facing a reraise with QQ or JJ pre-flop? #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diabloiij
PS: hate to get deal these 2 hands. toughest to play
How tough they are depends on the situation... I love these hands, especially QQ...it is only dominated by AA,KK and how often do you come up against AA or KK when holding QQ? (not often would be my guess :P )

If I don't respect the player who raised, easy push/reraise at 25nl; I win big pots this way more often than I lose them. Here is an example; my read was that this guy would be aggressive with any two overcards and was willing to push any ace:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($33.50)
MP3 ($24.80)
CO ($36.80)
Button ($35.90)
SB ($15.14)
BB ($48.90)
UTG ($9.60)
UTG+1 ($142.64)
MP1 ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q, Q. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10, 5 folds, UTG+1 raises to $17, Hero calls $23.50 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $16.50. (A,4)

Flop: ($67.35) 9, 8, 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($67.35) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($67.35) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $67.35

Here is another hand where my read on this guy was as follows; "idiot"

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($22.70)
UTG ($40)
MP ($26.55)
Hero ($29.15)
SB ($21.62)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, MP calls $1.

Flop: ($2.85) 6, 5, 4 (2 players)
MP raises $25.30 (All-In) (shows K 5), Hero calls $25.30.

Turn: ($53.45) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($53.45) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $53.45

Even with JJ, if I have a good read I'm not scared of reraising/pushing, although I do agree that JJ is a more delicate hand

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($24.30)
SB ($50.46)
BB ($47.20)
UTG ($28.42)
MP ($12.94)
Hero ($32.30)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises $12.94 (All-In) (showed 72o), Hero calls $12.94, 3 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: ($26.48) 6, 7, A (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($26.48) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($26.48) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $26.48

(all these hands were at 25nl)

Quote:
Originally Posted by diabloiij
3. when u have good position like button or button+1, and u see a raiser followed by another reraise?
(i would automaticly fold)
I'm not too sure about this one; automatically fold QQ just because of two reraises? The first guy could be making his standard 4bb raise with KJo (keep in mind, people on 25nl raise with complete rubish, even UTG or EP), the second guy could be reraising with AK/AQ/AA/KK/JJ/TT/AJ or worse (I see it happen all the time; look at the JJ hand above where the short stack went AI with 72o...). I would reraise in this situation and go for a heads-up, then outplay post-flop...

You are only REALLY dominated here by AA/KK (and QQ if you hold JJ); and there is still a fair chance you can flop a set or a rag board...

I'm interested to hear what someone more experianced than me (Rondavu, fnord, rippy etc?) would have to say about this though...
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renegaderob1
Old 10-24-2005, 09:39 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalentedTom
it really depends on your opponent, if the stakcs are not deep its most likey a even money race or he may be in there gambling with mid PP ( i dont respect a stack under 40xBB)

***I find in lower levels people ovetbet strong draw hands and underbet monsters (resulting in a lot of bad beats and end up blaming the site)
Against the underbet i think you need to play for trips vs the overbet, it depends on the player, check out the hand history see if this guy has been taking down a lot of pots playing way too many hands if any of these is true you can push. If he has been in the table for 40+ hands and only showndown 1 hand, you can fold ez.
Poker is the game of people the most important question is who rasied me and how has hes play been so far, don't fold to the fish who goes all in with AK after missing on a 238 rainbow flop you know who you are
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Rondavu
Old 10-24-2005, 01:24 PM #8 (permalink)  
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With QQ and JJ call a reraise for set value. The biggest reason for this has nothing to do with what your opponent is reraising as much it has to do with cash game being post flop poker. Even if your opponent is reraising A2 suited against your QQ, an ACE high flop can beat you, so you want to see how your opponent reacts to the flop.

There's no reason to get hot and heavy preflop in cash game without KK or AA. I will fold QQ preflop if I have to. I've done it many times. I have no desire to get run down by AK or even KQ (!!!) when my opponent reps AA or KK preflop, or there are several re-raises. Let him drain himself. If the price is too deep preflop I fold. Cash game is less gamble. There's no real urgency. Patience is well rewarded.

If you find yourself racing QQ and JJ often in cash game, then you're doing something wrong. That's the bottom line.

I felt that renegaderob1 was a little reckless in the hand histories presented. I mean if you have a terrific read, then congratulations and happy christmas shopping. These HH are the exception not the rule however. You don't want to be punishing your stack this way in cash game. It's a variance monster.
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Old 10-24-2005, 01:56 PM #9 (permalink)  
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depends on the read i have on someone... depends on the size of the raise...

min raise i'd put him on AK, AQ, AJ or something... i've seen dumbasses re-raise with that before... why?.. i don't know...

defenitely call... now if someone else re raises i'd have to lay my shit down...
 
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Surf_Thug
Old 10-24-2005, 03:08 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Maniacs are not smart enough to play good and bad hands fast.

They raise / re-raise with trash, and check the nuts. If I'm re-raised huge by a maniac I'm considering QQ the best hand all day long and putting my stack on the line.

The usually tight/weak 25nl cash player though would never re-raise/Push without AA/KK/QQ so most of the time you are pretty safe to fold in that spot.

This question is so much about the player you are playing agaisn't..
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Rondavu
Old 10-25-2005, 05:06 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf_Thug
This question is so much about the player you are playing against..
I'd be lying if I said I never raced the pocket Wilmas against a maniac. Well stated.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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renegaderob1
Old 10-26-2005, 05:13 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I felt that renegaderob1 was a little reckless in the hand histories presented. I mean if you have a terrific read, then congratulations and happy christmas shopping. These HH are the exception not the rule however. You don't want to be punishing your stack this way in cash game. It's a variance monster.
Fair enough. The first (VP$IP over 167 hands of 93% and prf raise % of 63%) and last guy were complete manics though, so it was happy xmas shopping
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