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atom2k8
Old 02-06-2009, 11:17 AM     Post subject: what did i do wrong #1 (permalink)  
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simple question what did i do wrong
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Button ($5.07)
SB ($3.01)
Hero (BB) ($1)
UTG ($1.91)
UTG+1 ($7.99)
MP1 ($1.85)
MP2 ($3.29)
MP3 ($1.66)
CO ($1.96)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, 6
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.06, 3 folds, Button calls $0.06, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19) K, 6, 10 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.19, 1 fold, Button calls $0.19

Turn: ($0.57) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.57, Button calls $0.57

River: ($1.71) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.71, Hero calls $0.18 (All-In)

Total pot: $2.07 | Rake: $0.10
 
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texa8
Old 02-06-2009, 11:50 AM #2 (permalink)  
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dont bet 57c and leave urself 18c... if ur the short stack you need to play more aggressively. Shove the turn IMO
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atom2k8
Old 02-06-2009, 11:57 AM #3 (permalink)  
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thats what i was thinking myself to be honest on any other occasion i would have i dont know why i didnt here
 
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texa8
Old 02-06-2009, 11:59 AM #4 (permalink)  
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ive read that if ur going to bet, and its going to be half or more of ur stack it should be all in.. not sure if that applies to deep stacks.. maybe someone else has some thoughts on that?
short stack though thats not a bad rule of thumb in situations like that
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tunah
Old 02-06-2009, 12:29 PM #5 (permalink)  

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tunah
You assumed that because you lost the hand you did something wrong.

Sure, the turn bet should have been a shove, but since you didn't notice it, what makes you think you did something wrong?

Also, punctuation and spelling (at least in the title!) make your posts easier to read.

Quote:
ive read that if ur going to bet, and its going to be half or more of ur stack it should be all in.. not sure if that applies to deep stacks.. maybe someone else has some thoughts on that?
Suppose you're heads up a $1 pot and you have $2 left.
If you make a pot sized bet of $1 and get called, there's $3 in the pot. If someone later tries to put you all in for $1 more, you'll be getting 4:1 pot odds and have to call in most situations. (You're pot committed)

Compare this to just betting all-in to start with. If you go all-in you're putting the same amount of money at risk, but you don't give your opponent the option of seeing another card before risking their money.

The threshold of pot-commitment varies (half your stack is a rule of thumb) and there might be rare times to break the rule, but the principle applies at all stack sizes.
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atom2k8
Old 02-06-2009, 04:44 PM #6 (permalink)  
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at least i can rest easy knowing he wont last long with his money honestly who can last long when they are playing with a 4 2 hole card even if they are suited into a raised pot
 
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kingmucker
Old 02-07-2009, 05:46 AM #7 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by atom2k8
at least i can rest easy knowing he wont last long with his money honestly who can last long when they are playing with a 4 2 hole card even if they are suited into a raised pot
i'm undoubtedly one of less experienced players here, but. . .

i LOVE 42 suited in a raised pot. i never would have considered playing such a hand if not for doyle's chapters on them in supersystem. i still wouldn't have been convinced, but at the time of this posting, my most profitable pot was one in which i called a substantial preflop raise (and a caller before me) with 5d 3d. i made my straight-flush and broke both of them for a $15 pot.

when i see 53s or 42s, i'm praying for a deep stack to raise with aces...we'll either get it in on the flop when i have a straight, a flush, or a full boat; or i missed and that's the end of the hand.

(just my 2¢ . . . for what it's worth)

- ß^)
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:04 PM #8 (permalink)  
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42s doesn't have the odds to call a 3x raise by a 100BB stack if the 100BB stack has aces and will always stack off post-flop
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kb coolman
Old 02-07-2009, 06:09 PM #9 (permalink)  
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You played the hand fine. The only reason you need to shove the turn is because you are playing short and don't have a large enough stack to pot bet three streets.
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2ndline.4thstreet
Old 02-07-2009, 06:49 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Whenever someone is short stacked and makes a "large" bet but leaves a small portion of their chips behind I tend to think they're weak and I like to call or reraise. No way to avoid someone drawing out on you except to push them out.
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Sk8Surf
Old 02-07-2009, 09:36 PM #11 (permalink)  

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if the other player had flush draw at that limit it is more then likly that he will not fold his hand knowing that if he hits that clubs he will have you allin no matter what you had . you played your hand fine i think that you should watch the flop cards and think about what teh other players could pos have in order too call a bet that you made , if you look at the board you can put the player on certain hands , K 6 10 flop you can put him on QJ pos straight Draw 79 gut shot 78 89 J9 Q9 or pos flush draw and then you can have better idea of what you should do on turn i think check was the right move seeing that the other player probably wouldnt have folded too the board at that limit knowing that you could have checked the river too see what he would do him in position in front of you , checking check behind he maybe trying too check bet ! or you in front check too see what he does ether way tough too say
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loonychune
Old 02-07-2009, 11:56 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
when i see 53s or 42s, i'm praying for a deep stack to raise with aces..
Really? Just roughly...

With 2 suited cards, you'll flop a flush 1 every 119 times.
You'll flop a straight 1 every 102 times.
You'll flop a full house 1 every 1088 times

These events aren't completely independent of each other and a few other things might happen... you might flop trips and have the best hand, you might flop trips and have the worse hand, you might have the lower end of the flush, you might get outdrawn and lose...

Let's just say you are successful 1 in every 80 times.

Let's assume on average that it costs you 3.5bb every time you call this raise. Also, let's assume you're both deep stacked at 200bb each.
So, you win 200bb once and lose 3.5bb 79 times.

Net profit: 200 - (79*3.5) = -76.5bb.

This is all very rough. But i'll put it another way.

If you're both deep stacked at 200bb, and it costs you 3.5bb on average per call, then you HAVE to be successful at least 1 every 58 times.

If you're only 100bb deep (as is common), you have to be successful at least 1 in every 29.5 times.

I am pretty sure Super System is all about bullying players. 42s will flop a fair number of draws, in which case you at least have SOME equity if the better hand calls you (even then you don't want a call from AA).
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-08-2009, 12:52 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loonychune
Quote:
when i see 53s or 42s, i'm praying for a deep stack to raise with aces..
Really? Just roughly...

With 2 suited cards, you'll flop a flush 1 every 119 times.
You'll flop a straight 1 every 102 times.
You'll flop a full house 1 every 1088 times

These events aren't completely independent of each other and a few other things might happen... you might flop trips and have the best hand, you might flop trips and have the worse hand, you might have the lower end of the flush, you might get outdrawn and lose...

Let's just say you are successful 1 in every 80 times.

Let's assume on average that it costs you 3.5bb every time you call this raise. Also, let's assume you're both deep stacked at 200bb each.
So, you win 200bb once and lose 3.5bb 79 times.

Net profit: 200 - (79*3.5) = -76.5bb.

This is all very rough. But i'll put it another way.

If you're both deep stacked at 200bb, and it costs you 3.5bb on average per call, then you HAVE to be successful at least 1 every 58 times.

If you're only 100bb deep (as is common), you have to be successful at least 1 in every 29.5 times.

I am pretty sure Super System is all about bullying players. 42s will flop a fair number of draws, in which case you at least have SOME equity if the better hand calls you (even then you don't want a call from AA).
This is too conservative. You're forgetting about all the times we will flop draws, or have favourable boards to bluff out the other guys AA, KK or whatever we believe him to have. Roughly 20% of the time by the river any two cards will crack AA, so obviously we aren't just hoping to win 1/56 times here...

I'm not saying we should all start calling raises with junk when we're deep and we know someone has a big pair, you're just assuming you will never be able to outplay the villian. You also ignored the odds of flopping 2 pair or draws, pair + draws that we can set up a big semi-bluff on (i.e. represent a set or something and hope villian folds when we are behind with only outs to 2 pair or a straight etc.) You also ignored all the unfavourable flops for a big pair. Thus, how you play a 'potential junk' hand against someone 200bb deep depends on your opponent and whether he can at least fold a napkin or not.

In fact, we don't know if our opponent has aces in the first place (unless of course in the rare cirumstance we run into a player that we have information on who ONLY raises AA) - so this makes calling with a bad hand for the purpose of setting up for a bluff/float on the flop even more inviting since opponent could easily have the more likely holding (unpaired hand).
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loonychune
Old 02-08-2009, 04:14 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
This is too conservative.
Very true. I just wanted to test out a reasonable approximation.

If you read the post above his strategy was: win a huge pot when he flops the flush, straight or boat; be done with the hand otherwise.

I did allude to what you've said at the end of the post. I'm sure this is more the point of super system. You can't just call and hope you hit a monster and not expect to lose money.
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-08-2009, 04:25 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 [quote="loonychune"]
Quote:
This is too conservative.
Very true. I just wanted to test out a reasonable approximation.

If you read the post above his strategy was: win a huge pot when he flops the flush, straight or boat; be done with the hand otherwise.

I did allude to what you've said at the end of the post. I'm sure this is more the point of super system. You can't just call and hope you hit a monster and not expect to lose money.[quote]

Ahh, yeah hit-to-win is no good there, and it's a good idea you illustrated the math behind it so others would understand why. Good explanation regarding that and sorry I didn't really read the post above clearly. Now hopefully those wondering can see how hit-to-win is no good there, and then figure out what needs to be taken into consideration when deciding on whether or not to call a raise with a trash hand.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Hoopy
Old 02-08-2009, 12:58 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 Shove the turn, if he was drawing to the flush and called then he made the wrong decision.
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Robb
Old 02-08-2009, 01:46 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 Mistakes in this hand:
1. Buying in short (why not learn to play w/ 100bb?)
2. Getting results oriented
3. Not understanding equity

Mistakes NOT in this hand: Turn bet

OK, I'm leveling a bit, but shoving the turn isn't the only good option. Sometimes I'll 2/3 PSB the turn, which leaves everyone pot committed but doesn't seem as strong. You want weaker hands to call. Of course, if he'll get it all in w/ a shove, then shove. But you can get lots of value from villains who think about "should I call this?" on a street by street basis. They get to the river, have a quarter left, and go "oh wtf?"

But you bet sized OK and played fine. NH.

Fixing Real Mistakes
1. Try 100bb stacks and rebuy full often (or set up FT's or stars auto top-off to do it for you). You'll learn more about how to play the game, especially in big pots like this. You're game can improve just as quickly full stacking, but when you move up you'll be more ready for the next level.
2. You played this one fine. Don't worry about it. You got your money in good.
3. I used to worry about flushes when I had sets. Now I don't. It's not that I always stack off - I try not to. But here's the math. EVERY time a set faces a flush with one card to come, the set has 10 outs (roughly 20% chance) of making a full house or quads. Usually, it's the person betting the flush draw that comes off worst against a set in a big pot.


DON'T CALL W/ 53s PREFLOP K THANKS
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bjsaust
Old 02-08-2009, 08:42 PM #18 (permalink)  
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I see nothing wrong with this hand. Sometimes you just lose.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Fnord
Old 02-08-2009, 09:01 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Bet the river for value.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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