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KeeKoLy
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03-16-2009, 10:56 PM
Post subject: What is the correct pre-flop play here with TT?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Villian was 23/4.5/5 through 20 hands only....regardless of the outcome, how should I have played this differently? Should I have called pre, re-raised for info, or simply folded, I am pretty sure ion retrospect with his numbers pushing was a tad too aggressive 
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Villian (CO) ($0.86)
Button ($1.03)
SB ($0.77)
BB ($1.19)
UTG ($1.22)
UTG+1 ($4.97)
MP1 ($5.65)
Hero (MP2) ($3.36)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 10 , 10
3 folds, Hero bets $0.08, Villian raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $3.36 (All-In), Villian calls $0.56 (All-In)
Flop: ($1.75) 7, 8, 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Turn: ($1.75) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($1.75) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $1.75 | Rake: $0.05
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Considering most microdonks only 3bet QQ+ and AK, you could shrug/fold to the 3bet. His stats are mostly useless over 20 hands, but his 43BB stacks says he's a donkey.
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Ich grolle nicht...
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OneEyeLefty
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In the batter's box. Already 0-1 count....
Posts: 125
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I would have called his pre-flop re-raise and pushed the flop. Either way it's getting in. Once he re-raised me pre-flop however. I would have liked to see some cards before committing more.
Lefty
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Careful what you wish for.....you just may get it!
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ArcadianRock
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 295
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If he had JJ+ or better I think you were just doomed to lose this hand. Like you said, even if you flatted you would have pushed him all in after the flop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by OneEyeLefty
I would have called his pre-flop re-raise and pushed the flop. Either way it's getting in. Once he re-raised me pre-flop however. I would have liked to see some cards before committing more.
Lefty
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calling would not make sense here because of the stack sizes
is he really going to fold a better hand?
or are you c/f on a K84 flop?
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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i fold pre. stacks are too small to sethunt and we are almost always behind a micros 3b range. I think its safe to assume that most micro players are 3b QQ+, AK until proven otherwise, with more weight towards KK and AA. I really dont see any point in calling or shoving here without additional information as that sample size is waaaay to small to be helpful. In addition...if it actually said anything, it tells us that his aggression of 5 was post flop and shouldnt tell us anything about his 3b range.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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JKDS
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03-17-2009, 05:52 AM
Post subject: Re: What is the correct pre-flop play here with TT?
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#7 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
re-raised for info,
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what does this mean?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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03-17-2009, 06:06 AM
Post subject: Re: What is the correct pre-flop play here with TT?
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#8 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
re-raised for info,
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what does this mean? |
obv shoving to see your opponent's hand
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KeeKoLy
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03-17-2009, 01:10 PM
Post subject: Re: What is the correct pre-flop play here with TT?
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#9 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
re-raised for info,
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what does this mean? |
obv shoving to see your opponent's hand |
It means re-raising to see if he shoves, raises again, or simply calls and backs down a bit. I take it this is not something that should be done?
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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IMO at 2nl, the only hand you are likely ahead of is AK after he reraises you. Sometimes you will find players who think AK is the nuts but many times they hold QQ+.
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I confess in quicksand
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
IMO at 2nl, the only hand you are likely ahead of is AK after he reraises you. Sometimes you will find players who think AK is the nuts but many times they hold QQ+.
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I think after the past couple of days I tend to agree with you...
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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I probably wouldn't have called a 3bet with 1010, too many hands have it beat and he's short stacked. Was the $0.30 above his normal pf raise?
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03-17-2009, 02:17 PM
Post subject: Re: What is the correct pre-flop play here with TT?
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#13 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
re-raised for info,
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what does this mean? |
obv shoving to see your opponent's hand |
It means re-raising to see if he shoves, raises again, or simply calls and backs down a bit. I take it this is not something that should be done? |
you can't make any raise other than all in with the stack sizes
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Ok, we're replying but not being terribly helpful here. I guess I'll break the trend by not being particularly kind.
Generally TT is a hand that's strong enough to stack off with pre-flop when the effective stacks are short.
If you don't know what effective stacks means - do some research.
There is a general rule of thumb that if you put in a third of the effective stack you are committed. Like here the effective stack is 43bb. If you both put in 14bb the pot is 28bb and you have 29bb behind. There is so much money in the middle that between your chance of drawing out and the chance of you already being ahead you cannot ever fold. Research the principles of commitment - that's why you can't call and why call is always wrong.
In the present case you could say he always has QQ+, never AK, fold and not think a second about it and move on. This isn't wrong. You could also decide that he would bet QQ+ smaller or call them to see a flop and get money out of you after the flop whereas he would bet 72o and AKs only this way so you go all-in to get him to play for stacks when you are a favourite. This also isn't wrong. The correct move in this and many other circumstances is decided by the playing tendencies of your opponent. We can't tell you what they are. Only you can do that by paying attention to how he plays any and every hand and taking intelligent notes.
Raising for info. This is the worst thing you say in your post. Due to commitment there's a huge gaping flaw in thinking that you can raise for info. There is no action that involves you putting chips in that doesn't involve you putting all your chips in. There is no informational value there. Most crucially - some people say never to bet or raise for value. They're wrong, but it's not a bad rule of thumb because... the information you get is normally not worth that which you pay for it. The information you get may not be helpful. If you raise and he calls what does that tell you about his hand? How do you convert that information into a profitable decision for you on a later street? Betting, raising and calling for information are secondary objectives only - we need to make those moves only if we think they are immediately profitable and the informational advantage we can deduct from them is a plus.
Go back to what you said: Raise for info. How much are you thinking to raise? Now tell me - what does it mean if he calls? What does it mean if he raises you all-in? What is your plan for the hand in those two situations?
I think your play in the hand is certainly defensible. I don't think shoving or folding is really a big mistake either way. But your thought process is bad.
"... how should I have played this differently?" Results oriented much? Who says you played it wrong? Sometimes you play a hand right and lose. Sometimes you play a hand wrong and win. Generally you want to play right more often as you'll win more over time, but on any individual hand there's a lot of randomness involved and any outcome generally is possible and will occur at least some of the time.
Fact is, when you shove your opponent is correct to call with almost any two cards as he needs about 32% equity for his call to be breakeven.
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Woutman984
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 9
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After weeks of reading through these forums i'm finally going to make my first post. I've been grinding at 10nl for quite a while now and i think it's wrong to think most microdonks only 3 bet QQ+ and AK. in fact, i have seen people 3 betting, and then CALLING a 4bet with crap like A8 or small to medium pocket pairs
Especially the shortstackers seem to treat small and medium pocket pairs like the nuts at these stakes. they simply seem to LOVE to 3 bet shove with these.
In this case, however, while over only 20 hands or so, this guy has only raised 4,5 percent. this usually convinces me that pocket 10's are, at best, a coinflip. I think you should have folded to his 3-bet here.
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