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Weird preflop action and overpair on flop

  
 
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AFchung
Old 02-03-2009, 04:30 PM     Post subject: Weird preflop action and overpair on flop #1 (permalink)  
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Villain that flats-reraises is 9/6 over 140 hands

Villain that squeezes is 6/6 over 90 hands


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (MP1) ($10.30)
MP2 ($13.35)
MP3 ($13.25)
CO ($6.35)
Button ($9.65)
SB ($6.70)
BB ($1.85)
UTG ($2.40)
UTG+1 ($29.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.40, 3 folds, BB raises to $1.85 (All-In), Hero calls $1.45, MP3 raises to $3.30, Hero calls $1.45

Flop: ($8.50) 7, J, 9 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $9.95 (All-In), Hero calls $7 (All-In)

Turn: ($22.50) 3 (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($22.50) 10 (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: $22.50 | Rake: $1.10
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-03-2009, 10:49 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 How do you plan on playing this hand if MP3 flat calls the short stacks shove too, and the flop brings and Ace and/or King?

When I experiemented with short stacking I noticed that whenever I would shove preflop I would cause alot of players to get into akward situations in mulitway pots, and it looks like this is one of them.

MP3 just flat called your raise, therefore, you can hope he doesn't have AA/KK and just shove preflop and isolate the shorty's all in.
What's MP3's 3-bet %? If it is 0 then he might have AA/KK. My guess is he has TT/JJ and he can't let it go preflop, therefore shove pre.
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bjsaust
Old 02-03-2009, 10:52 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Those are pretty tight stats for 10nl, but I probably just shove over the 4bet.
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-03-2009, 10:58 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
Those are pretty tight stats for 10nl, but I probably just shove over the 4bet.
There are a surprisingly large amount of super-nits at $10NL these days at PokerStars. Must be alot of readers of the 19 hand strategy or something.
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Robb
Old 02-03-2009, 11:00 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 This is the type of hand where I look back and think: "I should have found a fold somewhere." But it's hard to see where. There's so much equity vs. villains' ranges preflop at each step I probably wouldn't find a fold there, but the flop shove seems strong to me. I might manage to lay it down without some kind of read. Even if he'll do this preflop w/ TT+, JJ got there and TT's close. There's just not much in the way of worse hands he could be playing this way.
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-03-2009, 11:09 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
This is the type of hand where I look back and think: "I should have found a fold somewhere." But it's hard to see where.
I think folding should be done on the flop. At worst I think you'll lay down the best hand to AJ. Otherwise you're beat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Even if he'll do this preflop w/ TT+, JJ got there and TT's close. There's just not much in the way of worse hands he could be playing this way.
That's why shoving preflop sounds like the best play because what boards are willing to stack off here on that don't involve a queen?
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bjsaust
Old 02-03-2009, 11:16 PM #7 (permalink)  
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If you're going to fold on this flop then calling the 4-bet PF is horrendous. You turned QQ into a sethunt without odds.
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Robb
Old 02-03-2009, 11:49 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 I agree with BJ, and on my good days I get away from this preflop. But on a lot of days I call along, thinking of the HUGE pot odds, and digging the hole deeper with a hopeless hand. I don't like the overshove preflop much, but if you're going to play this one past the squeeze attempt, that's probably the best option.
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-04-2009, 01:03 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 Explain to me how this would be a good fold preflop...

How can overshoving be bad - what flops do we stack off with on???...the worst that can happen is AA/KK slowplayed us preflop and we lose a buy-in, big deal. We can't be too concerned that the squeezer has AA/KK either. IMO get the money in preflop or go played fixed limit where we can fold the flop or work out the odds to draw to something because it will just be harder to hit that all-in button at the right times in bigger games if we're scared to lose a buy-in.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Old 02-05-2009, 12:45 AM #10 (permalink)  
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no, you mean I think I should have found a shove there somewhere
that's when you shove pf to get it in
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bjsaust
Old 02-05-2009, 01:34 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Stats are small samples, but villain who call/reraises has 6% PFR and the shorty who 3-bet ai also has 6% PFR. No idea what their 3/4 bet stats are, but give them ranges and see how QQ fares.
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Robb
Old 02-05-2009, 02:22 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Explain to me how this would be a good fold preflop...
When I see the flop shove, I'm pretty convinced Hero has a hopeless hand. This isn't often a bluff, imo. Like BJ says, folding to the shove is woeful if you've called the 4bet.

So I started back at the beginning. I would like to find a fold to the squeeze or the 4bet. I tend to call the squeeze w/ QQ, but this is exactly where that line sucks. We don't know this villain is strong until we see the cc/4bet (min). At that point, he's obviously strong. Shoving over the top here is pretty likely to run into AA or KK, imo.

After thinking about this hand a lot, I would guess I would have gotten myself trapped, hated myself for calling and looking up KK+ from the 4bettor. Tough spot. If you put all the AKo combo's in villain's range, then the shove is fine given the pot odds. But that's a big if.

I'd be interested to hear what BJ thinks about folding/shoving preflop. I think the correct place to fold is to the 4bet, despite the great pot odds on offer there. That's the point I'm pretty sure I'm crushed.
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