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villagenut
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06-15-2009, 06:13 PM
Post subject: Are we always AI here
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 110
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We have KsQs in position.
Flop is Jh Ts 5s
Villian makes a pot size bet
Hero?
Trying to make the transition from SnG's to ring. Still working on pot control and bet size. In position, it seems this is always a shove over but will someone verify this or explain why we would not. In addtition, What would be the appropriate action if we were first to act after flop rather than in position.
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van.dog
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 58
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Standard reply:
Dpends on reads. I would expect him to have a set and is trying to make the draw for a flush unprofitable.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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We have 40% equity against even top set. Our worse situation is him having the nut flush draw. Given he will be cbet/folding here often getting allin will be +EV based on fold equity, but it doesn't mean it's the most +EV play. Calling is also certainly +EV. So put him on a range of hands, and do some EV calcs and see which is more +EV.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Even against top set Van, we have more than enough equity to get it all in, assuming even 200bb (I'd imagine it's close, I don't have the time to do the math) stacks and a normal PFR here.
The problem is: Shoving over is *not* always the best way to get it AI. Against top set, yeah. But what if we're scaring off something like AJ?
Without knowing the action pre-flop though, we really can't put a range on our villain, and without knowing stack sizes we really can't make a decision concerning ev-ness.
Making this post a waste of a space. More information yields better answers.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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villagenut
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 110
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Even against top set Van, we have more than enough equity to get it all in, assuming even 200bb (I'd imagine it's close, I don't have the time to do the math) stacks and a normal PFR here.
The problem is: Shoving over is *not* always the best way to get it AI. Against top set, yeah. But what if we're scaring off something like AJ?
Without knowing the action pre-flop though, we really can't put a range on our villain, and without knowing stack sizes we really can't make a decision concerning ev-ness.
Making this post a waste of a space. More information yields better answers.
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Don't mean to "waste space". When learning, one does not always know how to correctly ask a question. In my scenerio, there would most likely be a raise and call. Either the Villian has raised and i have smooth called in position or.... i may have raised let's say in the CO and the villian is on the button and smooth called. And i am assuming even stack sizes...
After some more thought, i can see where a read on villian may allow a smooth call and possibly squeeze another bet out of him on the turn if he hits a good card that also helps us.
Can someone point me to some good reading on bet sizing and pot control? Thanks guys for the comments..
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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If you intend not to waste space in the future, please refer to the stickies.... all of them, before posting again.
kkthxbai
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Just wanted to say if the situation is he raised, I called preflop, and he cbet the flop.. I'm raising here and calling a shove more often than not. While we have a very strong draw, it's just that, a draw. And if we call here and miss the turn, our equity is cut roughly in half. So I would put this strong draw that I know to be +EV to raise/call it off, into my flop stackoff range, and do just that.
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nish81
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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I think it'd also matter how big the stacks are in relationship to the pot, not just whether you guys have even stacks.
as for reading, well the beginners digest is pretty helpful. and i'm a noob myself, but the text im reading ('no limit hold'em theory and practice') seems to have some stuff about bet sizing and pot control in the first few sections, it's certainly helping me a lot
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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This is an easy felt against almost any opponent for me. There's only one situation in which I'd elect to just call the flop. When I have a pretty accurate read on villain and therefore know his range is very strong including pretty much only hands that he'll be unable to lay down. So this is only not a raise/felt if we know we have very little FE on the flop, and know villain will pay us off always on later streets should we make our hand.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Get PokerStove if you don't have it already (it's free) and see how you do against different ranges in this spot.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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with monster draws, we need to get it on the flop to be "getting it in good". if we get it on the turn (as opposed to calling down trying to hit), we'll be getting our money in bad
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van.dog
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 58
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
with monster draws, we need to get it on the flop to be "getting it in good". if we get it on the turn (as opposed to calling down trying to hit), we'll be getting our money in bad
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I'm a noob. Can you elaborate on this? I think you mean that his bet should have been higher pre-flop. amirite?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
with monster draws, we need to get it on the flop to be "getting it in good". if we get it on the turn (as opposed to calling down trying to hit), we'll be getting our money in bad
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This is false. If we have >33% equity here against his range, then calling is not 'getting money in bad'. Yes, if we call and miss the turn, our equity is cut in half, but that doesn't mean we are getting money in bad. This still doesn't mean that calling is > felting on flop. It depends.
Also, against even the NFD, we have >33% equity. Same goes for Top set.
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golfguy37
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Straight
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 217
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Pot sized bets can mean a wide range of hands all the way down to top pair. You have 2 over cards, a strait draw, and a flush draw. You have 9 outs to the flush + 6 outs to an overpair + 6 outs to the strait (minus 2 from the flush). In total that is 21 outs actually making you the favorite. Even if he had two pair, it would still be a pretty even race (15 outs) race so I would shove over and try to hit something.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Not reading other replies, just think of it as an option you always have and will likely be good.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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