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Pelion
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12-26-2005, 12:30 AM
Post subject: Want to get LAGgy
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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I usually play tight aggressive but ive been looking to add a new gear to my game for when the table gets a bit rocky. My standard raise is about 6BB at the 5NL stars games. Can i start raising 6BB with suited connectors or will that bleed off chips too fast. Im worried that if i drop to 4BB then too many people will start calling.
What are the LAG guidelines you guys tend to play by? Do you target specific players or do you just look for specific players to not target (i.e. calling stations). Id really like a sort of Preflop starting hand selection guide with what hands to raise when and then a general postflop guide. For example if you raise preflop with 78s and get 3+ callers do you give up there or do you still cbet from late position. Trying to understand the reasons behind the descisions you make in this loose style.
Do you hope to make profit on your bluffs or just break even but take more stacks when you hit?
What about calling? Ive seen you guys call preflop raises with crap like 68s. How do you play that postflop? Do you bet aggressivly when you have a draw, or bet aggressivly anyway.
Anything and everything you can tell me about this style would be great.
Cheers
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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finky
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 270
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I'm not an expert on this by a long way but I've had a few profitable sessions and these are some of the things I've learnt
To be a sucsesful LAG you need to rely heavely on reads and know players individual breaking points. I'd recomend starting on 6-max where you can get a bit more intimate with the players and have to lower you starting requirements. LAGs need to be able to push people off pots which can get very expensive if it frequenly goes wrong. Position is very important as you need as mush information as possible about the opponent and hands like 86s are like gold, slipping in under their radar you can often catch just enough of the flop to push your evil schemes.
Breaking even on bluffs is fine but not that easy. You need to know if a player has made a decision to call you down and give up, those last dich efforts are always the most expensive. Make sure you show down any crazy bluffs. This, and catching your inside straight on the river with 86s should generate a 'get him' attitude for a lot of players at the table. If you can feel this happening, tighten up. Your LAGGyness has done its work and its time to get paid. Players are often looking for a reason call, they want to see if your bluffing and know if there hand is good, it doesent matter that you havent made a big bet in 1/2 an hour if an hour ago you were sticking your chips in with nothing and thats often all the reason he needs.
If your worried aboult 6*BB make it lower but a table of calling stations is not the time or place for the LAG style as TAG gets paid off almost every time. Keep you bets consistant pre-flop is vital for masking your hand and I usually bet 3/4 on the flop if i have a pair, a set, a draw or air. Taking lots of little pots under a 'smokescreen' of many bets fattens your roll, confounds your opponents and generates action when you need it.
I'm sure someone with more experiance will have more comments but thats my $0.02
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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My honest, wholehearted opinion:
$.01/$.02NL is not the place to learn how to lagg it up.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
My honest, wholehearted opinion:
$.01/$.02NL is not the place to learn how to lagg it up.
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Thats whay I was thinkng too. Theres too many calling stations. Your gonna cause yourself a whole load of heartache for very little/hard to obtain reward.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iRICHeyes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
My honest, wholehearted opinion:
$.01/$.02NL is not the place to learn how to lagg it up.
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Thats whay I was thinkng too. Theres too many calling stations. Your gonna cause yourself a whole load of heartache for very little/hard to obtain reward. |
Im talking about on a tighter table. Stars 5NL has become much tighter lately at certain times of day and im sure it would help my game. If try it and it doesnt work then ill stop. If I dont try it i wont know.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iRICHeyes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
My honest, wholehearted opinion:
$.01/$.02NL is not the place to learn how to lagg it up.
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Thats whay I was thinkng too. Theres too many calling stations. Your gonna cause yourself a whole load of heartache for very little/hard to obtain reward. |
Im talking about on a tighter table. Stars 5NL has become much tighter lately at certain times of day and im sure it would help my game. If try it and it doesnt work then ill stop. If I dont try it i wont know. |
Don't. You won't learn anything, and you'll lose money. It's lose lose. I can't imagine $5 tables ever getting tight enough for this, but maybe I'm wrong.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Sounds like a great place to learn how to loosen up and extract the max post-flop.
The correct adjustment against opponents who play too many hands and take them too far is not to tighten up. Tight play (NL set/AA/KK farming) is profitable but leaves a lot of money on the table.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Sounds like a great place to learn how to loosen up and extract the max post-flop.
The correct adjustment against opponents who play too many hands and take them too far is not to tighten up. Tight play (NL set/AA/KK farming) is profitable but leaves a lot of money on the table.
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Do you suggest this because a wider range of hands are winning more often? For instance someone playing a top pair Q4 kicker for stacks when you raised Q9 preflop on a LAGG trip? I'll have to think about the pos/neg of that. To me that's all postflop. I always tighten my raising requirements at loose tables and limp a very wide range because of what you're saying. Raising random hands into people that call with anything is like handing an edge over before you see flop cards that will give you a considerable edge, since you know how to play them and the competition doesn't.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I'm not suggesting LAgging it up with Q9s vs loose players. However, you certainly should be in there limping and playing lots of hands. Probably raising lots of stuff as well.
With good position against bad players with lots of money behind, the example you gave should be a +EV situation.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I'm not suggesting LAgging it up with Q9s vs loose players. However, you certainly should be in there limping and playing lots of hands. Probably raising lots of stuff as well.
With good position against bad players with lots of money behind, the example you gave should be a +EV situation.
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which just leaves the question "what sort of adjustments should be made?"
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Raise good hands.
Play flops with playable hands + position.
Run circles around them post-flop.
Bet big with the goods, expect them to call.
When the pot is small make tight laydowns, when the pot is big make loose calls and raises.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You certainly should be in there limping and playing lots of hands.
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Couldn't agree more.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Probably raising lots of stuff as well.
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You have such a postflop advantage, that raising anything non premium into a boatload of callers gives money back to weaker players. Specifically the 1 out of 5 that randomly called when you raised AJo, and hit the flop hard.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
You have such a postflop advantage, that raising anything non premium into a boatload of callers gives money back to weaker players.
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Not with 100bb stacks. Raise to build pots not the 4x+limper isolate and destroy raises. Building the pot a bit gets loose action, gives a post-flop pair more value, steals buttons and all sorts of other good things for you.
I want money in the pot pre-flop with hands like ATs. I'm going to hit more hands harder than the lemmings.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
You have such a postflop advantage, that raising anything non premium into a boatload of callers gives money back to weaker players.
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Not with 100bb stacks. Raise to build pots not the 4x+limper isolate and destroy raises. Building the pot a bit gets loose action, gives a post-flop pair more value, steals buttons and all sorts of other good things for you.
I want money in the pot pre-flop with hands like ATs. I'm going to hit more hands harder than the lemmings. |
Well stated. I can also see the potential to committ weak opponents with bad kickers and such more often when you have more in the middle. I think what I'm forgetting is how newer players will lunge for larger pots as if money in the middle makes their cards better.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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First off, a full table 5NL game isn't where to play LAG. Try 6 max 10NL and start to play a little more LAG. That doesn't mean raise every s00ted connector in any position, it means playing loose and aggressive in position with reasonable hands. It's hard to do this profitably against players who can't fold. I'd still reccomend ABC poker against these players though.
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