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shyguy03533
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04-08-2009, 05:09 AM
Post subject: VPIP and PFR help
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 59
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Hey, I just finally purchased PT3 and i got my stats for over 17k hands...
VPIP 14%
PFR 8%
AGG 60
I was wondering if you guys could help me out as to what a decent percentage I shud be shooting for? This is mainly for low stakes cash .05/.10
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AdamThePirate
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
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Is it Full Ring, or 6Max? for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9, but 6max is a bit looser.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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FR or 6m?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9,
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Ummm... No.. But I digress.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
Is it Full Ring, or 6Max? for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9, but 6max is a bit looser.
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If I had to guess, you run 16/9 at full ring and don't play 6-max
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
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AdamThePirate
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
Is it Full Ring, or 6Max? for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9, but 6max is a bit looser.
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If I had to guess, you run 16/9 at full ring and don't play 6-max |
No, I run even tighter than that, but knew I was too tight. If 16/9 is too tight then clearly I am folding way too many cards  .
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9,
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Ummm... No.. But I digress.
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AdamThePirate
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9,
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Ummm... No.. But I digress. |
Yeah, I get the point - I'm wrong.
But instead of being "Uh, no, stupid, no that's wrong!"
How about being more like "Uh, no, stupid - it's [insert good VPIP/PFR strategy for FR then 6max] at your stakes".
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9,
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Ummm... No.. But I digress. |
Yeah, I get the point - I'm wrong.
But instead of being "Uh, no, stupid, no that's wrong!"
How about being more like "Uh, no, stupid - it's [insert good VPIP/PFR strategy for FR then 6max] at your stakes". |
that would be spoon feeding
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
for FR that's about right, maybe 16/9,
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Ummm... No.. But I digress. |
Yeah, I get the point - I'm wrong.
But instead of being "Uh, no, stupid, no that's wrong!"
How about being more like "Uh, no, stupid - it's [insert good VPIP/PFR strategy for FR then 6max] at your stakes". |
Last time I did that, you totally misinterpreted my entire essay-long response, and the thread died soon after. But with 16/9 there is a relatively large gap between the PFR and the VPIP. This is indicating that "you" are either limping often or calling preflop often. Whiling neither is bad in a vacuum, doing too much of one will lead to leaks.
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AdamThePirate
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
that would be spoon feeding
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Yes, it would be. Fair enough, but if someone asks a question, what are you going to do, ignore it, heckle them? Or point them in the right direction.
So maybe a better strategy would be, "I'll link them to THIS article for an idea of good pre-flop strategy."
Edit: I guess a good idea would be to open poker stove and put in all of the hands you'd think would be worth raising with in each of the 9/10 (or 6) positions. That would give you a good PFR target I guess.
Etc.
Edit: Oh, and my VPIP/PFR is 11/8. Which yes, might be too tight.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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The question of the correct vpip/pfr is actually pretty useless imo. There is no definitive answer as to the best vpip/pfr to run at in any game. Since poker is about making +ev plays, and the correct plays differ depending on opponents, then your actions are going to depend on your opponents. Your going to have to seek out the opponents leaks, and make a play to exploit those leaks. In doing so, you might steer away from the "standard" stats over the long run.
I've run anywhere from 12/10 to 17/15 over relatively large (>100k) hand samples. Can I say either one was better? Not really. I mean at the time I ran 12/10 I think it was best for me, because that the maximum % of hands I felt comfortable with and that I felt I could play +EV. Now, I feel I play a bit better postflop (although not as good as I would like), and therefore can play a wider % of hands preflop.
Also Adam, I realize my initial response was not all that wonderful. However, it wasn't terrible. You immediately realized that I disagreed with you, which meant that I believe you are incorrect. Based on the small information you provided (two numbers), you could have made some assumptions on why I disagreed. You could have assumed that I believed one was too high, one was too low, they were too far apart, etc. In which case you would likely have to think about why it was that I was disagreeing with you. But I guess this was not the case. I'm sorry for making assumptions.
IT ALL DEPENDS.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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adam, nice work on the link.
Even better - op, go read the digest posts in the shorthanded or fullring part of the forum. It will pay dividends.
optimum vpip/pfr at FR varies by player's style, strengths and weaknesses, and the games being played. at FR 100nl I see 9-7 types profit, and same with 17-14 types. to quote stax
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Originally Posted by generic but relevant words of wisdom
it all depends
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
The question of the correct vpip/pfr is actually pretty useless imo. There is no definitive answer as to the best vpip/pfr to run at in any game. Since poker is about making +ev plays, and the correct plays differ depending on opponents, then your actions are going to depend on your opponents. Your going to have to seek out the opponents leaks, and make a play to exploit those leaks. In doing so, you might steer away from the "standard" stats over the long run.
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This.
Seriously, while obviously these stats are important, I think way, way, way too much ink (real and virtual) is spilled on pre-flop play in hold 'em, as if there is some magic hand chart and magic percentage of hands that one should play that will lead one to the promised land.
In fact, it is possible to be a profitable hold 'em player and run 30/24. It is also possible to be a profitable hold 'em player (in full ring) and run 6/5. And it's possible to be a profitable hold 'em player playng all sorts of different starting hand charts, or none at all.
But the best decisions are decisions made after informed reads of opponents. Against the right opponents in the right situation, raising 72o from UTG can work as a positive EV play. (Everyone at the table folds to aggression from out of position.) So can checking AA from the BB. (Only one opponent, whom you know will fold to any pre-flop raise.) Obviously, those are extremes that don't happen very often. But there are plenty of less-extreme situations that happen all the time. 3-betting K4s from the BB against a habitual blind-stealer, for instance. Isolating a loose villain by raising 33. Deciding whether to limp or raise your suited connectors based on your table's texture.
What players need to do is stop thinking of the charts and the stats as the definitive issues and start thinking about the proper pre-flop plays against the particular opponents they are facing. And, of course, give as much thought to post-flop play as pre-flop play, as it is possible to make all the "correct" plays pre-flop and still lose a ton of money.
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