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sarbox68
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05-23-2008, 06:55 PM
Post subject: Visiting the School of 6-max
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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I've pretty much only played FR... just clocked by 200K hand a week or so ago. Currently at $25NL and running okay long-term.
I'm thinking of spending some time in 6max 'cause I believe there are some skills I can pick up there that will help me in my FR game. Right now I'm thinking -
1) Increased 3-bet/4-bet aggression
Both initiating and responding too. Not much 3-betting happening in FR at the levels I've been playing at, and I think getting better at doing this more (and more comfortable responding to it) will be helpful
2) Opening up in LP
Getting comfortable pushing the LP aggression w/ a wider range. I figure with blinds coming around much quicker in 6max, I can work on really opening this range up aggressively and getting better at working thru the post-flop action when people refuse to be stolen.
3) Post-flop in general
I'll just see more hands, more situations, etc in a shorter time. I also get the sense 6max is less nut-camping than FR, so I'll pick up experience playing more streets in thinner value scenarios.
4) Opp profiling
Fewer people at the table means I can pay more attention to each of them. Get better at note-taking and applying this to my reads n' ranges.
5) Blind defense
Also get the sense that blinds is stoled more in 6max so I can get better at picking the right spots to fight back.
Thoughts on these? Other things I can look out for / focus on?
Will be starting with $10NL and see how it goes... 
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Robb
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05-26-2008, 01:25 PM
Post subject: Re: Visiting the School of 6-max
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#2 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
1) Increased 3-bet/4-bet aggression
Both initiating and responding too. Not much 3-betting happening in FR at the levels I've been playing at, and I think getting better at doing this more (and more comfortable responding to it) will be helpful
2) Opening up in LP
Getting comfortable pushing the LP aggression w/ a wider range. I figure with blinds coming around much quicker in 6max, I can work on really opening this range up aggressively and getting better at working thru the post-flop action when people refuse to be stolen.
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Yes, there is more 3betting and 4betting, but not that much more at 10nl. 25nl 6max, 3betting is MUCH more prevalent, imo.
LP play is a HUGE difference from FR. In 6max, you end up in a lot of BTN vs. blind and blind vs. blind battles where no one raised up the pot pre before it got to you. At 10nl, I blind steal in the 30% range. I raise from BB EVERY time it folds to the BTN, and BTN / SB just call. ATC. And if you're willing to 2barrel with a wide range of junk, these blind battles can be very +EV. Start slow, attacking with a wider and wider range while you're getting comfortable with the changes.
Oh, yes. And only try to steal blinds that CAN be stolen. I'm not trying to steal when the guy to my left plays 55/20 loose. I'm trying to find another table.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
3) Post-flop in general
I'll just see more hands, more situations, etc in a shorter time. I also get the sense 6max is less nut-camping than FR, so I'll pick up experience playing more streets in thinner value scenarios.
4) Opp profiling
Fewer people at the table means I can pay more attention to each of them. Get better at note-taking and applying this to my reads n' ranges.
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It's less nut-camping, for sure. But you do have time to wait for reasonably good hands before you move in. Don't get too impatient (like I did when I first started playing 6max like a jackass donk-fish  ). The toughest thing about the rhythm of 6max is watching the blinds bleed off 20bb of your stack without seeing a playable hand. Go with it. You'll pick up something at that table or another, stack someone, and make it up later.
Yes, 6max is more read-dependent, and it's easy to get several hundred hands against one player in a single night, especially if he's multitabling. Table selection also helps, and trying to keep the big loose stacks to your right and smaller stacks to your left is righteous. If you can do both, get a villain with a deep loose stack with a solid read (i.e. several notes / a line on his play, HUD stats) sitting to your right for a few hundred hands...nirvana.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
5) Blind defense
Also get the sense that blinds is stoled more in 6max so I can get better at picking the right spots to fight back.
Thoughts on these? Other things I can look out for / focus on?
Will be starting with $10NL and see how it goes... |
The best defense against blind stealing is stealing them yourself more often than villains try it, imo. But there is a place to pop the BTN in the mouth with a 3bet. I try to do it with some kind of value, however, like a suited Ace, 56s or JTo. Something that might connect with the flop in case I have to 2barrel. Waiting for a decent holding against a villain who is relentlessly stealing is -EV. But you said it: picking your spot is vital for success.
There are lots of "poker mantras" that un-thinking players quote relentlessly, many of which are essentially meaningless. Example: bet to "figure out where I'm at." For 6max, so many -EV plays are justified by the meaningless mantra: "you have to do ____ 'cuz the blinds come around so often." While the blinds come around more often, so does the most profitable position in poker: the BTN. And believe it or not, boys, the cutoff comes around extra fast, too. :P
For me, the fact that such very different seats at the table "come around so often" means that positional play is about 50 times more important than at FR. You should have a very tight UTG and MP range, say 8/6ish. Cutoff can be more 20/16, with BTN maybe 32/24.
These numbers are estimates only, but I like to play 6max at least 3 times looser from the BTN than from UTG and MP. And I try to the play the cutoff almost twice as loose as UTG/MP. Even though they're only 1 or 2 seats apart at the table, they play that differently.
Just my two cents, here, but the key to understanding the game is not focusing on how the blinds bleed off your stack so fast. It's focusing on how the 6 different positions are uniquely profitable, and exploiting those differences more precisely and more effectively than your opponents.
(And yes, you can play the blinds for profit at 6max 10nl. Break even or near it should be very straightforward.)
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Robb -
Dude... I can always count on you to put together some very informative and thoughtful sh!t. Thx!
I'm 5K into my experiment, and running 8.1PTBB/100. I know that sh!t's small sample, but I gotta say, I think all my conditioning on FR is helping out. At $10NL, these goons chase MPWK, busted draws and sh!t I can't even figure out what they think they got for value through the river. Combining opening up CO & Bu w/ my tighter FR post-flop "everybody be nut card camping...." and this sh!ts an f-in gold mine at these levels....
I have no doubts this is all gonna change at $25 and $50... but at least I'm enjoying the ride for now...
Moral of the story? I think all noobies should spend some time at FR. You see less hands, but it conditions you to play against stronger villain holdings. I may be wrong, but I think it's easier to lighten up and play against crap-holders than it is to kick some time in the school of nutz...
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Robb -
Dude... I can always count on you to put together some very informative and thoughtful sh!t. Thx!
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You're very welcome - glad you think it helped.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
I'm 5K into my experiment, and running 8.1PTBB/100. I know that sh!t's small sample, but I gotta say, I think all my conditioning on FR is helping out. At $10NL, these goons chase MPWK, busted draws and sh!t I can't even figure out what they think they got for value through the river. Combining opening up CO & Bu w/ my tighter FR post-flop "everybody be nut card camping...." and this sh!ts an f-in gold mine at these levels....
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I sustained 7.5 ptBB/100 for nearly 30k hands when last I played 10nl 6max. I don't think that 6 to 7 ptBB/100 is unrealistic.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Moral of the story? I think all noobies should spend some time at FR. You see less hands, but it conditions you to play against stronger villain holdings. I may be wrong, but I think it's easier to lighten up and play against crap-holders than it is to kick some time in the school of nutz... |
F**kin' nit 
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
F**kin' nit |
...and m---a f-in proud of it!
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
F**kin' nit |
...and m---a f-in proud of it! |
I did actually LoL on that!!
nh, sir
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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screen shot position stats
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Hope this sh!t works....
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Position stats look pretty solid to me. You could open up even more LP - keep EP/MP tight.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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This is what I'm playing on the Bu (opening or against limpers... call or raise is read dependent) ...
22+, A8o+, A2s+, K9o+, K2s+, Q9o+, Q5s+, J9o+, J8s+, T9o, 98o,
T9s-54s, T8s-64s
Should I open any wider? If so, where?... all SCs and suited one-gappers?
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Should I open any wider?
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Stats look good except for co. play cutoff like a second button...
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
This is what I'm playing on the Bu (opening or against limpers... call or raise is read dependent) ...
22+, A8o+, A2s+, K9o+, K2s+, Q9o+, Q5s+, J9o+, J8s+, T9o, 98o,
T9s-54s, T8s-64s
Should I open any wider? If so, where?... all SCs and suited one-gappers?
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Naw. that's pretty good.
I would open up a bit more from the CO, but not as wide as above. But, heck, play your way for another 15k hands, see how the winrate is. Every site and everyone's style is a bit different. Looks like you're doing fine.
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Avenger0
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Yup, looks like you're doing fine. Keep up the good work an post again when you has the winrate of the next 15k-20k
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